Anyone actually seen their childs behaviour change after mmr?

[Ally24]

My son will have the mmr vaccine later this year just wondering if anyone has actually seen a definate change in behaviour of their child following it. Or is it all media hype??

Not permanently. He became a holy terror from about 10 days afterwards for a week or two (screaming for upwards of an hour at bedtime, suddenly becoming aggressive at nursery), but then went back to normal (phew!). It might not have been related, but it was right at the period where the nurse had said side-effects might show up.

No problems with either of my DDs. Apart from them being complete drama queens of course.

I read the original Wakefield article in the Lancet. It put my mind completely at ease and I was happy for them both to have the MMR.

So, we're agreed that the parents aren't bonkers and that there is a small risk, a very small risk. Say it's one in 10,000 or even 1 in 100,000 - how will I feel/cope if my child is the one? That's what has stopped me & my DH letting them have it. But I'm not happy they're unprotected. Isn't the problem supposed to be the mercury they use in the vaccine? Hopefully they'll find a substitute for that soon.

Current info on mercury in vaccines:

Ethylmercury is present in some vaccines in a compound called thiomersal. It is used in some vaccines to keep the vaccine free of contamination. It has been used in vaccines for over 60 years and has played an important role in maintaining vaccine safety.

The Committee on Safety of Medicines (CSM) has examined the link between thiomersal and neurotoxicity. The CSM advised that there is no evidence of harm caused by doses of thiomersal in vaccines, except for hypersensitivity reactions (such as allergic skin reactions). There is no evidence of a link between hypersensitivity reactions and the development of autism.

Two new studies have been completed (one funded by DoH, and the other by WHO) in the UK. They looked at a possible link between mercury in vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders in children. Neither of the studies, involving over a hundred thousand children, finds a link between thiomersal exposure and neurodevelopment disorders, including autism.

A further study, published recently in the medical journal 'The Lancet', found that ethylmercury is very rapidly eliminated from babies' bodies and did not accumulate. The paper found that the level of mercury in blood was no higher in children after vaccination than at birth. Claims of neurological damage have been based on toxicity from methyl mercury, not present in thiomersal.

Under 10% of children with autism are believed to have been triggered by the MMR- so you won't find many. That's only a few hundred children a year. There are a couple of people on mumsnet who attribute MMR (one had encephalitis following MMR) to their child's autism, and I know of a handful off mumsnet.

If you want to read a good book on vaccinations I recommend Richard Halvorsen's book (he;s an NHS GP) "The truth about vaccines" published a few weeks ago so bang up to date. He actually ends up recommending most of the childhood vaccinations (although not MMR- he does recommend single measles though), but basically has the same concerns about the vaccination programme as I have (that sounds a bit weird, but reading his book was amazing as it highlighted all the same things I'd found- and answered a few quaetions).

My son didn't regress after MMR, but he did stop talking and regress behaviourally after a herpes infection at a year old. Aged 8 he is still non-verbal, has severe learning difficulties & has some gut problems. He requires 24 hours care and will do for the rest of his life. Wakefields theory is actually about regression following viral infections (including herpes). No doctor has ever questioned ds1's regression. In fact I think it is detailed in his diagnosis.

The committee on safety of medicines found "no evidence of harm" as no safety trials have ever been carried out on thimerosal. "no evidence of harm" is very careful wording by them.

If you want to uncover spin read the Halvorsen chapter on thimerosal.

The same European Medicines Evaluation Agency which could find no evidence of harm also said that thimerosal should be removed "wiithin the shortest possible timeframe". Right. It took the UK 5 years to remove it following that advice.

The studies showing no link between autism and thimerosal have all been critised on various grounds. The goivt tends to fail to mention the studies that have shown a link.

Many children with autism appear to have problems removing heavy metals from their bodies (not just mercury- my friend's dd for example had lead levels of over 100- a should have been dead level- she was chelated on the NHS).

no.

but dd1 went mad.hyper for a week after booster HIb when she was 4, it was like she was possessed.

BTW- someone below saiud that vacccines go through elaborate safety trials. Not true. Recently they've had far less than pother drugs. Certainly in the old days they did, but not now.

IN terms of effectiveness its now estimated that the MMR is about 62% effective in preventing mumps; single mumps 83%. This sort of figure would have been known before introduction if safety trials had been carried out. They may have decided against vaccination- all its done is make the disease more serious (as more adults get it) and 62% is not enough to prevent outbreaks.

15 children have receieved payments from the vaccine damage payments unit- you have to be 80% disabled to get a payment- so this is only the severest case and less than 1% of cases get payments (or something shocking like that- it is incredibly difficult to get a payment).

The safety trials on the MMR consisted of passive surveillance in the main, with active surveillance of some children for 6 weeks (one study) or 3 weeks. Not log enough to pick up on long term changes. Cochrane has said the MMR safety trials were largely inadequate.

i beilive a small number of children are affected by the MMR my girls were fine with it, DS was unwell and regressed very badly, he was DX with autism, i think the MMR was the trigger for him

my son broke out into a fever after his MMr and since then he has been getting a fever every couple of months or so..it gets so bad that he is drenched in sweat for 3 nights in a row, doesnt eat and hallucinates badly cos of high temperatures.

the doctors say its just a virus that will vanish as he gets older, and now he is 3.5 i have found that his fevers are fading and are much less frequent.

We never were sure what caused them but it seemed a bit of a coincidence that the first one occured straight after his MMR.

Having said that, my dd was absolutlely fine with her MMR.

Incidentally mercury buggers up the immune response in mice to herpes simplex. That was enough for me to ensure that ds2 and ds3 went nowhere near the stuff (as ds1 - who did get thimerosal regressed following a herpes infection).

Thimerosal has been removed from most of the peadiatric jabs now but is still found in some flu vaccines given to children. Thimerosal free vaccines are available.

Yes
My son went from absoloutely normal development ( incl dev checks and has older sib so I wasn't in any doubt about normal dev) to severely autistic in a matter of months. The jab was 17th April and we were at Drs requesting uregent referal in June.
Immediate reaction was big hot lump on leg where jab went in and then just a bit lethargic and whiney for several days. Only a week or two later did I realise that in doing his whinney thing he had stopped all words and had also stopped usual toddler blork ( babble and talk mixed up - you know, where they look at you and have a complete conversation in terms of tone, intonation, pauses, emphasis etc but it is jibber )
He started being incredibly picky about food and when my mum visited weeks ( or maybe a months?0 after the jab) she said fairly early on "why isn't he looking at me?). He stopped playing with brother. started flapping hands and looking at things from odd angles and pretty soon he was gone.
Gorgeous little thing he was too. the most kissable bum I have ever seen - such a pink thing. HE is now also white as a sheet the whole time - so much so that he looks almost translucent.

So thats my sad story.

ROFL
hey Gess - not stalking you I promise! Should have known you would be here. I have that book on order from Amazon [waves]

Hi pag I've been rereading bits; bet you read it in a day!

Ds1's food regression really stood out btw pag- sounds similar again. I remember being at my SILs wedding when he was just short of a year old and everyone was laughing at him because he ate everything- really weird grown up stuff as well. Within 3 months he would only eat bread & cheerios (oh and washing powder). Nothing else.

He used to be pale with dark circles under his eyes as well. saccromyces really sorted out a lot of his gut problems btw (not that I can get it into him now), and his colour etc.

oh- and just a question- did your ds lose sounds as well? At 12 months ds1 had all the sounds. Have video of him quacking and ssssing (snake) & he used to copy sounds I made; now his non vowel sounds are really limited. 'ba, da, ya" that's about it. Can't ssss or kkk (used to point to caterpillars and say "ka"- can remember that clearly) or ggg etc, certainly can't quack.

Bee trying to get some sounds back, but not getting far (he did have 'ba' on demand, but now lost that!)

My DS3's regression was already well under way before he had MMR jab. I didn't notice that he was worse after having the jab.

DS3's regression was over the same period as he had a string of viral infections.

My other two DSs also had MMR jab and neither had a regression afterwards (DS1 also has autism DX but his was not the regressive type).

Yes, food regression was a big part of it for DS3 too.

In the summer he turned one, he was eating tuna casserole with pasta, pizza, sausages, peas etc.

Now he subsists on jars of baby food (with pureed veg hidden in it by me) marmite rice cakes, cheerios, toast, apples and bananas.

I will read it in a day if the kids bloomin let me.

Cheerios! Bloody cheerios! he used to carry them in his hand as if he may panic if he ran out. Plus bread, cakes biscuits pasta and chicken nuggets. Like you he and sib had huge diet and within a really short period I suddenly couldn't get him to eat anything that wasn't a white carb ( except bourbons and chocolate cake).
The bit that made me really sad was that while DS2 was turning into devil child I was so panic stricken that I just started serving foods he would eat and so brother got that crap too. Took me ages to reexpand DS1's diet even though I made DS2 gfcf really quickly.
I do remember taking him into DH's office and he put a bagel in one guys pocket and cheerios in his turn ups

Sorry for the hijack people

(yep apologies for hijacking but its kicked off loads of memories) DS1 used to scrabble behind the sofa for cheerios He cut down via chicken nuggets and fish fingers (all the stews and casseroles and roast dinners that he had loved went first) then they went. I remember coming in from work (used to work on Saturdays) to find dh trying to get ds1 to eat fish fingers by spreading them with jam (!!). It worked for about 2 weeks then they went to0; so it was cheerios and bread - poor dh was depserate though. His limited diet messed up ds2's as well- as it stayed limited for years.

Gess
yes lost meaningful sounds too. When noises came backthey were either screams or this really odd whooping noise that used to increase in pitch - highly repetive and very annoying.
His MMR was at 18 month and he was developing quite early so we had emergent full words mama, dada, no, - he mad a good stab at brothers name and manma for my mum. A few more but can't remember as I didn't think I would have to.

He has workable language back probably about a decent four year old. Can't grasp abstract concepts though. BUT he now does have verbal and oral dyspraxia which again we have no reason to believe was there before. Makes it hard for him because he is highly motivated to speak. So for example wanting to go to the shops would be " mummy and Charlie to ver shops and cafe for charlie. It is good. Lets go mummy. Fank you " Pretty stilted but works ( ie "go along way" = will you just f off!)

More hijacking - sorry

Did any of you get stims starting at that time too? My boys hand flapping started I think immediately and we had full on tensing and then pinching and spasm like movements again with 6 to 8 weeks/

A little late but in answer to SenoraPostrophe the USA is now seriously investigating the link between autism and vaccinations. Families are currently in the process of suing the manufacturers of MMR over here and other vaccinations for damage to their children. The UK is not alone in this by any means. Autism rates in the USA are now a frightening 1 in 130 or so, and rising.

1 in 80 now (UK autism rates); although my sticker on my window says 1 in 100 (depends which age group you count!)

interested in spasms pagwatch- ds1 often goes into spasm- I might bore you with my video of it- trying to work out what it is, and never seen another child with it. Pead doesn't know (have showed her); doesn't think seizures- although I've since come across a paper on catatonia in autism which can include repetitive spasms apparently, sounded similar- they can get stuck in these movements- which he does. He kind of arches his back and jerks backwards whilst kneeling up. It doesn't seem fully in his control. I can say sit down and he will for a few seconds but then returns to it- he doesn't seem to like it though.

DS1 also has verbal and oral dyspraxia- he is vocalising a lot atm- telling me everything (everytime we drive past somewhere he's ever been even if only once he points at it and starts vocalising) but everything is "eh eh eh eh eh eh eh". I have to say "oh yes that's where we saw....x" if I get the WRONG event then god help me. Unfortunately his memory is better than mine.

I tried a little experiment with him earlier. I was thinking of all the animal sounds he used to have (had the whole repertoire) so I asked him "what does an X say" he used to answer correctly- everything was "eh" so I gave him the sound to see if he could copy any of them. Basically no. Moo was mmm so close, ssss - he just blew through his lips- like he was trying to whistle. The others were all 'eh".

Certainly we had no reason to suspect verbal dyspraxia when younger either- he had a wide range of sounds before his regresssion. He sounds continued to decrease for a long time. So I have a recording of him singing when he was under 2 (twinkle tinwkle) in one of those teddy bear factory bears- present for dh. The words are not clear (this was after the regression started) but there are some consonants. Also counting. He used to count and the numbers were recognisable- now they're not at all.

Weird isn't it?

BTW I think the fact that your son had 'no' as a word really demonstrates he was developing normally. DS1 has never had a functional no (still doesn't)- we're trying to teach yes/no- but not getting anywhere. ds1 was younger when he regressed and hadn't got past early nouns/animal noises etc - I know from watching my other children how important (and useful) no is as a word- and how utterly 'normal' iykwim.

It is interesting. DS3 could at one stage say a passable "one, two, three" (he learnt to say it post-regression, actually) but now the sound are distorted out of all recognition.

He also had functional "No!" pre-regression.

DD1 had the MMR (at 18m) and was fine, didn't even flinch when it went in (was eating chocolate buttons at the time). No fever, nothing.

DD2 had the MMR in June (at 21m) and also was fine, though a bit "off colour" for a few days but nothing major. Her eczema did come back though, but has now settled down again.

I am doing as Berolina - one shot at MMR, no 'so called' booster, a test for immunity if i can get it and if not a single measles jab pre-school then Mumps/Rubella boosters as teenagers.