4 year old tormenting our kittens. Help! Not sure how to handle this anymore.(very long)

[Theclosetpagan]

My 4 year old DS is being a real handful at present. Family who observe him tell me he is "strong willed" (oh hell yes)and that I need to be much firmer with him. My Mum says I am too soft and that he knows exactly how to work us to get his own way. Me - I think I am too close to it all to be objective but I worry all the time about being an over-critical parent. DS is an extremely active and energetic little boy and we have a great deal of difficulty getting him into bed at night if he hasn't burnt off sufficient energy by day.

We recently got two kittens who are lovely and affectionate. DS adores them and they sit by him and purr. It's lovely to see as he didn't have this nice close relationship with our old cat (who pre-dated him by several years). We make a real fuss of him when he is being kind to the kittens.

Trouble is that DS has recently realised that the kittens are a pretty good attention getter when we are busy. We don't ignore DS but sometimes phone calls come or there is housework to do (which we try to involve him in) and it's at these times when our attention is elsewhere that the destructive behaviour starts. He used to chase our old cat from time to time and we used time outs etc which helped in the short term but we are still having to use them alot and so far I cannot see that it is having any effect.

DH is of the opinion that smacking is the way forward but I don't agree with smacking and am not prepared to agree to this.

Today I am at work and I have just had a call from DH to tell me that:

1. While they were shopping DS played up so much that DH nearly put everything down we needed to buy and abandon the shop. He managed he says but it was an ordeal from start to finish as DS just would not stay with him - ran off etc.

2. (more worrying) is that once home DS wanted to play in the garden. DH said he could. We are lucky enough to have an enclosed garden so DH decided to wash up and watch DS from the kitchen window. He observed DS lift up a large plastic box and clonk one of the kittens on the head with it. DH says DS laughed after he did it. I suggested that DH should have been in the garden with DS but DH told me that this was reality and that housework had to be done sometimes. He feels that we should be able to wash up, take phone calls etc without DS harming the kittens. Is this expecting too much - I sometimes feel he is only 4 and that we are expecting alot when maybe it's closer supervision he needs?
   DH said that he'd done time out with DS for his behaviour but that DS justlaughed at him and blew raspberries. DH says that DS has continued chasing the kittens since time out and both kittens are now hiding from him.

Help! I am at the end of my tether. DS is an only child so gets masses of attention from us - certainly much more than if he'd had several brothers or sisters.

My plan is to sit and talk to DS this evening when all has calmed down. He's 4.5 - will be 5 in December. Am I expecting too much from him. I just feel we are straying into seeing him as always bad at the moment. He does plenty of good things which we praise him to the skies for.

He also has something called "sensory integration delay" for which he is due to be assessed by an OT. In new situations it's like sensory overload for his brain and his behaviour is frantic with no real concentration on any one thing. Am not sure if this is affecting his behaviour.

Am at my wits end at the moment. DS starts school in September and at the moment I am worrying that they won't be able to manage him.

I think the idea of focusing attention om the kittens ("oh poor little thing, are you hurt? Did DS hurt you? Oh what a horrible thing to do!") Might be just as effective as the punishment. Might give him more insight into the impact of his behaviour?

TCP - glad you weren't offended, as I certainly didn't intend any offence. I think you're right about it an attention seeking piece of behaviour. He's getting older and smarter and working out different ways to get it! I agree with other posters that you have to be firm and consistent. What worked last month might not work in a month's time - you've got to keep a step ahead of him!

LEM - I wasn't trying to patronise you, and sorry if you felt that way. I simply disagreed with you that animal treatment like this could be dismissed in the way that you did.

And as for the watching too much telly, don't know where you got that from. Or what you're trying to imply? As TCP says there is known link between the two.

TF - if you want more information here is an initial link:

www.liverpool.ac.uk/psychology/staff/LAlmond/Almondnew.pdf

This came up with a quick Google. I'm sure there's more if you really want to look into it.

agreee, rotties (in the right hands) are wonderful dogs, our first was an absolute star with DD1, we had him froma pup and he was just lovely. Our second one was what i like to call a bettersea reject - he came with some serious issues, when we got him
DD1 15 and no idea dd2 on the way. We kept them separate apart from very closely supervised contact. But poor old yazz developed bone cancer and had to be put to sleep. I loved him dearly but he would have been a constant source of worry with DD2 and we were conering carefully rehoming but
fate intervewned

becasue im worth it, i apologise for the telly remark, totally uncalled for, i was just angry that everyone seemed to be flaming OP. You are right about the link, i have heard this too but didnt think you should have mentioned it. But i am sorry about my bitchy comment. I would never dismiss animal cruelty but i just dont feel this is what is happening here. Inappropriate behaviour yes, but the parents are dealing well.

i love animals, they have always played an important role in my life. I just dont think oversentimentality is often the best way to go.

OP if it makes you feel a little better, there is another thread on here today about someones DC cutting cats whiskas off Embarrased laughter, i did that to my poor cat when i was little too, i think he forgave me though point im ttryig to mayke, i dont think your son is unusual in his trying bahaviour with the kittens.

I don't think anyone flaming - the OP asked if anyone thought she was "expecting too much" of her 4.5yo to be able to play without tormenting a kitten, and not to have to be constantly supervised. Consensus on the answer was a resounding no - not expecting too much, and need to draw lines. If that can't be done then the kittens need a new home.

An older cat is very different - they will draw the line for themselves. DS spends hours trying to "train" our cat (with more success than you would expect) but knows full well that if she chooses to walk away then that is her choice and he has to leave her to it. He is the same age as the OP's DS - she asked, we replied.

but the general consensus among animal welfare organisations regarding children and animals is just that CONSTANT SUPERVISION for the safety of the animal, and more importantly the child.

actually pagan, have you thought of getting a cage for the kits, i have one for my pup, he loves it, it is his place of shelter from a mad house. And a place of safety when i cant be watching him the whole time. He isnt in it for long and often takes himself off there tfor sleeps. That way there can be somewhere out of bounds to your son, keeping him and the cats safe.

That is fascinating BIWI. Thanks for the link.

We have two young cats and a dog and when dd was younger she went through a phase of bullying behaviour - abour 3- 4 years old to our dog ( the cats came along later) I do think that animals, particularly young ones don't mix well with under fives as they have an imaturity that can lead to the infliction of pain on other animals. But you have the kittens so we need if possible to make it work.

If dd was mean to the dog she would be sent to her room as she could not be trusted to be with the dog and it was not fair to remove him from the situation as she was the one misbehaving.

I once caught her kicking our dog when she was five and I told her that the dog would need to be rehomed until she could learn to behave and that she would need to pay for the kennels. We were supposed to be going to alton towers but we cancelled it as I said we needed the money to pay for the kennels. In reality the dog went to stay with my mother in law for a fortnight. She has never done it again.

i do agree with the older cat thing though. Hell hath no fury like an angry cat!!! I have lots of scars from my time as a vet nurse, none of them are from dogs

you cancelled her trip???? way to go, that will really develop positive relationship with the dog! How old was she?

She was four and she loves our dog.

a few weeks of five so old enough to understand

a little harsh IMO but yes she should understand she musn't kick the dog. i thought she was younger than that, but then that shows how much i think before i post, much younger she wouldnt have wanted to go to alton towers im going to shut up now.

I am very strict with my dd and make no apololgies for that, am often criticised on here for being too strict with her but my teaching has shown me what happens to children who are not given the structure of clear boundaries and effective discipline.

I think that kicking a dog at 5 by a child with no specific needs and then cancelling a trip to alton towers is fine personally. You can cause serious damage to a dog by kciking it.

a fair point twinset, i think discipline and getting it right is the hardest part about being a parent. I was very strict, although not effectively with DD1, she is 17 now and rebelling VERY effectively. Ive learnt to take a step back, some parents can do strict, it seems, i couldnt. DD2 is only 2 so not had to be strict yet

no shit hercules

sorry! Did kind of state the obvious didnt I!

yeah, but dont mind me, im pre menstural

Hang on - one minute you are saying that we are being unreasonably overprotective of the kittens and they should be left to sort it out, and the next minute you are saying constant supervision?!! My DS is the same age and certainly doesn't get "constant supervision" (although granted it would be different with a dog)

I think I may have mentioned the "place of safety" as well but you were too busy being righteously indignant to notice.

OK - enough - walking away now - I am sure Theclosetpagan will sort it out and kittens and DS will thrive together.

Thank you all once again for your replies - you have all been helpful.

Have sat and talked with DH this evening and have agreed that while DS is going through this then constant supervision is needed with the kittens. DS is now in bed but had a nice cuddle with both kittens tonight for which we gave massive praise. Kittens are 16 weeks old and are not at all fazed by the noisy 4 year old around them.

Somebody asked about the possibility of DS being jealous and we do think that there is an element of this there.

He IS only 4 but quite old enough to know that what he did this afternoon was unacceptable.

jealous is s big factor in our house jealousy can be everywhere, dd gets jealous of the dog, the dog gets jealous of me, of dd and the kittens and the kittens ... well as long as they are fed and watered they don't really care.

our cat jealous of anyone cuddling, dd4 gets jealous of the cat stealing our laps but being the youngest of 4 she is very used to not being centre of attention, the cat just pushes his way in and plonks himself down!