4 year old tormenting our kittens. Help! Not sure how to handle this anymore.(very long)

[Theclosetpagan]

My 4 year old DS is being a real handful at present. Family who observe him tell me he is "strong willed" (oh hell yes)and that I need to be much firmer with him. My Mum says I am too soft and that he knows exactly how to work us to get his own way. Me - I think I am too close to it all to be objective but I worry all the time about being an over-critical parent. DS is an extremely active and energetic little boy and we have a great deal of difficulty getting him into bed at night if he hasn't burnt off sufficient energy by day.

We recently got two kittens who are lovely and affectionate. DS adores them and they sit by him and purr. It's lovely to see as he didn't have this nice close relationship with our old cat (who pre-dated him by several years). We make a real fuss of him when he is being kind to the kittens.

Trouble is that DS has recently realised that the kittens are a pretty good attention getter when we are busy. We don't ignore DS but sometimes phone calls come or there is housework to do (which we try to involve him in) and it's at these times when our attention is elsewhere that the destructive behaviour starts. He used to chase our old cat from time to time and we used time outs etc which helped in the short term but we are still having to use them alot and so far I cannot see that it is having any effect.

DH is of the opinion that smacking is the way forward but I don't agree with smacking and am not prepared to agree to this.

Today I am at work and I have just had a call from DH to tell me that:

1. While they were shopping DS played up so much that DH nearly put everything down we needed to buy and abandon the shop. He managed he says but it was an ordeal from start to finish as DS just would not stay with him - ran off etc.

2. (more worrying) is that once home DS wanted to play in the garden. DH said he could. We are lucky enough to have an enclosed garden so DH decided to wash up and watch DS from the kitchen window. He observed DS lift up a large plastic box and clonk one of the kittens on the head with it. DH says DS laughed after he did it. I suggested that DH should have been in the garden with DS but DH told me that this was reality and that housework had to be done sometimes. He feels that we should be able to wash up, take phone calls etc without DS harming the kittens. Is this expecting too much - I sometimes feel he is only 4 and that we are expecting alot when maybe it's closer supervision he needs?
   DH said that he'd done time out with DS for his behaviour but that DS justlaughed at him and blew raspberries. DH says that DS has continued chasing the kittens since time out and both kittens are now hiding from him.

Help! I am at the end of my tether. DS is an only child so gets masses of attention from us - certainly much more than if he'd had several brothers or sisters.

My plan is to sit and talk to DS this evening when all has calmed down. He's 4.5 - will be 5 in December. Am I expecting too much from him. I just feel we are straying into seeing him as always bad at the moment. He does plenty of good things which we praise him to the skies for.

He also has something called "sensory integration delay" for which he is due to be assessed by an OT. In new situations it's like sensory overload for his brain and his behaviour is frantic with no real concentration on any one thing. Am not sure if this is affecting his behaviour.

Am at my wits end at the moment. DS starts school in September and at the moment I am worrying that they won't be able to manage him.

more constructive and less critical than my last post, I hasten to add - not a comment on anyone else!!!

5 in December is waaaaaay old enough to know that you dont go around terrorising animals!!! He should know better and i think if he doesn't stop it you should either (a) be much much firmer on him (sounds like he's taking your DH for a ride -sorry!) or (b) rehome the kittens for their own safety. At the end of the day, if he continues to treat them like this, they'll end up being nervous cats who run away from everybody and that's no fun for anyone, especially the cats!!

Sorry if i sound harsh.

actually I think the point about the kittens becoming nervous is a very valid one. I have two cats who I rescued as kittens. They were approx 3 months old when i got them and they'd been found abandoned in a cardboard box. When I brought them home they were so nervous they wouldn't come near us. We used to have to get them out from behind the sofa to handle them, and socialize them, it was a couple of weeks before they came to us voluntarily. Even now, 9 years on, they are both very nervous of people they don't know. One of them has a problem with her tail, in that she is unable to hold is erect as a cat does - it kind of flops over her back. she has feeling in it ectc it's just she can't hold it up, and the vet things that this is from possible nerve damage where she may have been kicked, or hit, or even thrown down some stairs.

So just think about what damage your ds is possibly doing to those tiny kittens, both physical and psychological.

tbh if this behavior is sustained then I would rehome them.

also, and sorry to go on but I do feel quite strongly about this, it's worth thinking about what impact this will have on other people whose houses he might go to if they have animals. because I aan tell you now that if a child came to my house and treated any of my animals like that he would never be invited back.

So you need to stamp down and be firm.

So true, wannabe.

i would like to say, my dd 2.8 is sorta the same with our kitten. she tries to play with it, but a lot of the time this includes shutting it in boxes/cupboards/picking it up by its tail.

iv tried desperately to get her to stop and over time shes getting better. she knows if she picks him up she sits in the hallway for 3 minutes on her own.

only problem is kitten doesnt help itself by trying to play with her!

i haven't read the whole thread, just skimmed your OP. I don't know anything about your sons specific needs, but i really wouldnt worry too much about the kittens.

My DD is being the same with our puppy, she is being openly spiteful and im really at a loss as to what to do, disciplining hasnt worked (verbal - we dcont smack either). DP suggest ignoring, which is fine but poor wee dog is having his ears pulled, muzzle squashed etc etc. But this is what will happen, ive had alot of experience with dogs, eventually, pup will get pissed off and ignore DD, at the moment he loves it but of course it mustn continue, for safety reasons. But will monitor and keep things safe.

i have to go so no time to post properly, just wanted to say, dont beat yourself up over this, i think it is pretty much normal for kids to be a bit spiteful at ott with animals sometimes. I guess your kittens will get pissed off, give him a swipe and he will realise its not such a great idea to give them stick. Maybe it would be best for you to ignore the behaviour and have the kittens sort him out (

It's a point of view LE'smum, but personally I am with wannabe. Any child (over 2) who mistreated an animal at my house would be (a) told off in no uncertain terms and (b) not invited back in a hurry.

blimey - wannabe, do you prefer your animals to your children - why has this thread become so angry. I would definately say that punishments are innapropriate in this little boys case. he is ONLY four and it appears he has some special needs ( i think i read that right - hope not wrong and offending).

To the OP, i would say if there is a danger of him really harming the kittens then maybe you should rehome them, but if it is just a bit of torment, i bet they will put him in his place soon enough. I used to make my cats be my dollies, and force them into prams etc when i was that age, i daresay a few tails were pulled too. Please don't punish him, just reward him when he is sitting playing nicely with the kittens, giving positive attention etc. If you punish he may end up resenting them and then he really might hurt them.

Thanks for all your replies everyone I really do appreciate it. Am a bit at the idea of re-homing the kittens as they are lovely. I have to admit though that it has crossed my mind. DS is usually lovely with them though and - typically - one of them is curled up next to him and purring at the moment.

We do push the time out massively - I really don't want to start with the smacking thing. DS goes into his room when he has time out and has the door shut. We also make him apologise for the behaviour he's had time out for. I am racking my brains alot to make sure we are being consistent with this.

I have sat DS down again this evening and said that this behaviour is NOT acceptable, that we will not stand for it and that if he continues to behave this way toward the kittens I will find new homes for them.

Am feeling a pretty useless mother at the moment - as though nothing I am doing is quite right.

Garden door is now locked - DS was in the garden when I got home (if I had been around when he clonked the kitten on the head there is no way he'd have been allowed back out).

Asked him to come in for tea - he refused and ran up the garden so I went and got him - was very calm - just said "it's time to come in" and took his hand. When we got to the path he hung off me resisting, scraped his knee on the floor and grazed it. He is now whinging on about the graze which has a plaster on it. I told him "If you'd done as I asked that wouldn't have happened" am now feeling guilty for my lack of sympathy - am feeling a crap mother.

Lucyellensmum, are you saying that if you saw one of your children "lift up a large plastic box and clonk one of the kittens on the head with it", you wouldn't discipline the child?

Theclosetpagan, you're doing fine.
Being consistent is tiring and tedious, but it does pay dividends.
You and your DH just need a chat about showing a united front at all times.

Deliberate cruelty - i.e. hitting them over the head - is totally unacceptable and must be dealt with. It's something that a nearly 5 year old must realise is not the right thing to do.

Animal cruelty at an early age is also something that has been linked with paedophiles. Not for one moment suggesting that the OP's ds will turn out to be one, but just to indicate to LEM why it is something to worry about.

i might try and intervene before it happens and explain that this is not acceptable behaviour, difficult for us, our dd is only just two. So yes, i would discipline but nothing too severe.But rather i would actively encourage a positive and kind approach to the animal which of course must be respeted an treated properly. I just that this thread has been very ANTI the op, all coming from the poor ickle kittycat view point. CAts are tougher than they look, they will make their feelings well and truely known with a swift swipe of the claws soon enough.

oh my good god! are you for real, that is going to make the OP feel really good about her little boy. See heres the thing, i gave my animals a right merry dance at a young age, no actual harm but torment a plenty, i grew up to be a veterinary nurse!

Can you link to that research please BIWI?

because im worth it, i am soooo angry with you - how dare you patronise me in such a way. For one thing, i perfectly understand that animal cruelty is a serious issue, but i dont think that this is going on in this case. You have been watching too much telly love

I must say I AM really concerned regarding the incident today. I've never known DS do anything so serious as this before. DS comes from a loving and non-abusive home so I have no reason to suspect that the behaviour today will be a long term thing. I have also never, ever known him to be spiteful or abusive towards other children - quite the opposite in fact. The nursery staff where he goes say he is very caring and gentle with smaller children - is keen to cuddle them when they are upset etc.

I know this is a purely attention seeking thing but it's dealing with it that I am struggling with. As far as I am concerned it's more serious than throwing things in temper or other irritating attention getters.

The sensory integration delay means only that he struggles with things like impulse control in new situations or environments and also has an immature pencil grip - has a palmer grip still. I am certain that the impulse control things is at the root of the behaviour outside the home.

Just wanted to also say that I am aware there is a link between animal cruelty and abuse of others. I honestly don't think that is what will happen here though. I don't take offence at anyone suggesting the link though as I already know it exists.

the closet pagan, please dont feel like you are a bad mum and dont feel bad about your little boy. I tend to think he is a very boysterous, very excitable NORMAL little boy. When DD gets rough with the dog, i remove the dog from her and say oh, pooor bob, poor little dog - she then tries to smother him in kisses he is very patient.

IS there the posibility that your little boy is jealous of the kittens? daft i know, but DD was actually really reserved around the pup when we first got him, not because she apprehensive, her first "borher" was a ten stone rottie, who, before i get flamed, she never was allowed much contact with as he was not a children dog (long story).

Agree with the posters who have said that there needs to be zero tolerance of cruelty to animals. A 4.5yo is old enough to understand this.

Closet, I think you probably are doing better than you think - you say he does plenty of good things that you praise him for and you do deal with the situation when he is unkind to your kittens. Don't be over-critical of yourself, just keep an eye on the kitten thing and make sure he absolutely knows the rules and has immediate consequences for misbehaviour. AND knows that they will be re-homed if he can't treat them well.

Shopping episode is not unusual for small children, honestly, doesn't mean you are bad parents!

i agree with you edam i do, but the previous posts on here have seemed venomous about this little boy. His parents are going a really good job in helping him understand that it is not good to torment the kitties, yes, he must NEVER hit them with objects and i guess time out was enough to make this clear.

pagen, you are doing a great job. And im quite jealous, DP is allergic to cats so i cant have one

"I just that this thread has been very ANTI the op, all coming from the poor ickle kittycat view point"

Then you read it wrong lucyellensmum. The reason that there should be zero tolerance re. tormenting animals is not due to some over sentimental clap trap about luvverly wubbly balls of fluff - it's because it is fundamental that children should be taught not to physically harm, torment or be cruel to any living thing. Without these important lessons early on in life they might not fully appreciate how to be compassionate, caring and considerate of others.

I tore a strip off my ds the other day for squashing a snail for heaven's sake (and I have no great liking for snails)

Anyway Theclosetpagan seems to fully appreciate this and it is clear that she is very committed to addressing this with her (I'm quite sure) usually very lovely little boy

No need for anyone to flame you anyway LucyEM, rotties have a very low bite reflex (bred to herd and gaurd high value livestock) and are often wonderful with children.

I agree about Rotties. WOuldnt want one myself but I know that if raised properly (like all dogs) they make great family pets.