Have I spoilt him?

[MelbourneMum]

my ds1 (just 4) is behaving, well to be honest, like a spoilt brat. When he gets a treat, he complains eg ice-cream yesterday was too small, his own camera that arrived today after weeks of build up had the wrong buttons so he came into my bedroom in floods of tears instead of beside himself with joy like I had imagined (it was $14 on ebay just in case you are thinking his own camera at his age was crazy indulgence - I'm a photographer and he's mad keen) At meal times he must have the 'biggest' plate, 5 minutes after birthday presents he wants to go to the toyshop and basically, he has to be pushed into pleases and thankyou's and seems to expect the world to provide his every indulgence. I can only imagine that I have somehow created this because fundamentally he's a very sweet, sensitve and gentle little character. I'm finding it really upsetting. A friend having spent the wekeend with us recommended it was time for tough love so the next time he complained about something, eg the icecream, it would just go in the bin. Any tips. Is this normal behaviour or have I spoilt him?

Hi
I think it's just a 4 year old child thing to be honest and I wouldn't worry. Ds1 can be like this at times (he's 5 now) and yes, from time to time I get very narky about him demanding everything and threats are made to put things in the bin - and sometimes carried out! One thing that helps with toys/presents is that he now gets 50p a week pocket money and usually has to at least contribute to things he wants - he's learning the value of money very quickly! He checks out prices of things and realises he can't just have everything he wants and to his credit can save a few £ to pay for things he really wants.

So maybe start him on a small amount of pocket money and let him know the price of things? And having the courage of your convictions to put a few things - say the ice cream - in the bin very occasionally I think wouldn't hurt - remind him who's boss!

putting the icecream in the bin is also unreasonable, as tempting as it would be. try to stick to short simple fair responses which won't change despite the length and breath of whining. eg. everyone got the same kind of icecream.

with the presents: its onlt been x wks since you b-day. presents are special treats for special occasions.

camera: it is perfect for a new photographer like yourself.

fake serene indifference. he's pushing to find where the boundaries are.

It's fairly normal for a 4yo to expect the world to provide his every indulgence, but there's nothing unreasonable in expecting him to respond appropriately. But he may not know what is appropriate. If he is truly upset by whatever it is then there's no way he's going to know how to present his 'upsetness' in an acceptable way.

Have you tried modelling the behaviour you want from him? Eg saying to him something along the lines of: "When you complain about something nice/whine/etc it makes me angry and upset. I would like to hear 'Thank you Mummy for the icecream' first, and then you can tell me - without whining - if you feel it's too small."

Hi MelbourneMum, your little boy sounds just like mine. I too would say it's very normal behaviour, although not the nicest!
My DS1 is 4 next month and for a while now nothing we do ever seems to be good enough. He also expects 'treats' all the time.

I agree to an extent with tough love, but feel that throwing the treat in a bin because he has complained about it is a bit harsh - maybe take it away and say he can have it when he is behaving better. Small children have expectations and build up in their minds what they think something is like (i.e the camera). When it's not quite what they think it's going to be they are disappointed and that manifests itself in whingeing and tantruming.

I don't know if this is the case for you, but we looked at how we dealt with DS's brattishness and found that we were giving him too many warnings and get-out clauses before carrying out the threatened discipline. He will try to talk his way out of anything and has an answer for everything! So we had a week of 'one warning then straight to time out' (for shouting at us etc) and it really helped to knock the bratty behaviour on the head.

We have stressed the importances of talking in a 'normal voice' i.e not whining and give absolute praise when he does remember to ask for something properly. But if after a reminder he continues to whine, we ignore him until he talks properly.

We have also changed some of the material nature of the treats, so rewards include daddy watching a film with him, or an extra story at bedtime. Like you, we never felt like we were over-indulging him, but with kids, give them an inch and they'll take a mile !

Hope this is helpful and good luck x

I've got a similar one as well. Everything is never quite good enough and christmas, well, he was so upset he didn't get everything in the Lego catalogue from Father Christmas! Dh and I were gobsmacked that what he had was completely overlooked and then turned to us and said 'Maybe I wasn't nice enough?' We then had to explain that just cos you ask for something doesn't mean you are going to get it and anyhow - how could father christmas carry all of that down the chimney. That seemed to answer his questions but blimey how crap did we feel.

We try and see the positive in things too, though it is difficult thinking on the spot sooo often.

I'm glad you posted that, after weekend of hell with DS1 (3.8) maybe he's normal rather than just incredibly spoilt!

thanks so much for the replies, its really helpful to hear that ds1 is not the only child behaving like this and also really good to hear some tips.
hippmummy thanks for the suggestion of non material treats, will try that one straight away. whining is a big issue for us at the moment, his 'normal' voice is rare these days!

Is it possible that you are trying a bit too hard to please him?

My cousins think every relative is a source of presents (no occasion other than seeing them and my bloody mother goes along with this much to my annoyance), that they should be entitled to have everything everyone else is having - so for example in a restaurant if they see another child having something they think they should have it, even if they've already eaten enough.

I'm not saying you are spoiling him, but I do think there is a point where you have to say no and explain that things are better sometimes when you have to wait/earn them.

Furball, I wouldn't have felt crap about the lego thing, I'd have said if he didn't like his presents perhaps we should send them all back too FC.

I agree with the whole positive parenting bit, reinforcing good behaviour with attention, but the converse side is taking away attention (or things) when poor behaviour is shown (e.g. whining/demanding).

It was more the fact that he thought he must have been naughty to not of got all he had asked.

Well he was a bit naughty to ask for so much wasn't he? Sounds like you handled it really well though, I think I would have been quite cross!

Sounds normal (hideous!) 4 y old behaviour. DS is like this if he hasn't slept enough, if we have been doing too much or just for random reasons because he is 4.

I sometimes sit down and explain that when he complains all the time, it makes us feel sad because we have worked hard to all have a nice life and when he whinges, we feel like he is not happy about all the nice things we have / do. He understands and agrees to try not to do it, but he isn't really aware of it, it's just a habit.

The only thing I have found really effective on the rare occasions I can manage to do it, is remaining calm (and honestly BEING calm, not just feigning it) and explaining very reasonably why the thing he wants can't happen. However if as usual I just feel irritated and stressed as soon as he begins, it all escalates.

Furballs, don't you think that is the logical progression of telling children that they will get presents if they are good, and not if they are bad? They will naturally weigh up what they have got, and gauge how 'good' or 'bad' they have been accordingly. Sounds quite natural and sensible to me - I would ditch any talk about FC bringing presents if you are good.

Why is it naughty to ask for what you want?

Sorry, I have a big thing about not making a child feel bad for asking - my parents did this, over the smallest silly things, and yes, they were probably trying to knock brattishness on the head - but I turned into a child who wouldn't ask for anything material, ever, and as the oldest of three, ended up with no shoes by the time I was 11 because I was too ashamed to ask for some. My parents had genuinely not noticed - I was very independent - but I had to miss my first day at high school because I couldn't go in flip flops!

Anyway, just because the answer is no doesn't mean it was wrong to ask!

you're right frannyandzooey
I often feel quite stressed when the whining and complaining starts and so am probably not behaving as reasonably as I could myself! I do sometimes wonder why its so hard to stay calm and in control when I'm meant to be the grown up and he's 4!
whomovedmychocolate its funny you say am I trying to hard to please him because I had that thought myself yesterday, why does it upset me so much if he is displeased! I think I"m a little too emotionally attached to his constant happiness if that makes any sense and take it all very personally if he's cross.. need to look at that!

hi escapefrom
I have no problem at all with ds1 asking for things, I just get upset when he does actually get them and then complains, really seriously complains, because they are not to his liking. But then maybe I'm just putting my expectations of how he should respond on to him.. I don't know. It is just tricky when other people do things for him and he appears ungrateful, hence the murmering of spoilt brat which sometimes feels like a fair call but of course I can say he is behaving that way but if anyone else does I get very defensive indeed!

MM I think you have something there - I take whinging personally because at the deepest level it feels like he is saying "I am not happy, therefore you are not a good mother." I know damn well I try my best to be a good mother, so this feels like an unfair criticism = me getting pissed off and wound up. Crap, isn't it?

That is the "its never enough syndrom." The more you indulge them, the more they want to be indulged. If you really think he is getting spoiled, try cutting back a bit. Eventually, he will start to appreciate those small treats again.

I get your point about the not getting stuff if you are bad. But, I don't believe I've ever said it. It seems to be everywhere - even father blooming christmas himself says 'have you been a good boy?'

i know what you mean. I don't think ds1 is linking his getting things with good or bad, he just seems to be going through a very self-centred phase but even as I type that it sounds ridiculous, of course he's self-centred, he's 4! Its just never seemed quite so unreasonable before. I do try and talk reasonably and calmly to him when we are having a quiet moment about having nice manners and appreciating the things he is given etc and he seems to understand at the time but does it again five minutes later. He really loses it over the most tiny thing. Is this a 4 thing? He was dreamy through the twos, challenging through the threes and this is a new phase.
Please don't get me wrong, we don't indulge his every whim and buy him toys on demand etc which is why we are so thrown by this..

the thing is, it takes practice to answer them in a reasonable tone with a reasonable reply. it is practice, practice. then it becomes easier because you know that setting sensible boundaries will pay off for them in the long run.

cue: think what he could be like at 16 if you keep giving in.

I think it comes and goes. I have a fourteen year old who is going into a me me me stage. We can spend the entire day having fun, and then if we don't go to the restuarant he wants..he storms off.

The nice thing about fourteen is he usually realizes after a while that he is being unreasonable and apologizes.

Lots of good advice on here but just to add my thoughts on the whining ... dd2 (now 8) has often gone through phases of lapsing into whining (which, incidentally, probably started around the age of 4!). We operate a zero tolerance policy of it and always say one of two things, either "say that again with a smile in your voice" or "take the whine out of your voice and tell me again". More often than not we find these days that in the repeating of the "complaint" the wording becomes much more reasonable along with the voice! If the whining continues, then we refuse to listen to her. Even at four we found she was capable of responding to this appropriately. Once she was able to tell us what the problem was, she gets our attention and a calm, rational explanation (it's so much easier to be/feel calm when you are not being whined at!!).

And yes I agree with the others - he's not spoilt, but he is testing the boundaries

Furball, I know! FC asked ds if he was a good boy and ds, being super truthful, said "well...sometimes"! which was heartbreaking.

I am not sure that children who are constantly asking for stuff need to be treated as spoilt and restricted from having things. It sounds like there is some unmet need going on there and that they are looking for more reassurance and security, possibly. I think our consumer culture equates love with buying each other stuff, and children pick up on this even if we don't give them that message ourselves. You can't just take the stuff away and expect the need to disappear.

thats a really good point frannyandzooey and dh and I have talked about that, surely an element of his behaviour is attention seeking and unmet needs which we need to look at. I guess its just figuring out where one ends and the other begins. Where is behaviour is due to a lack of positive response or attention on our part or where he is actually being unreasonably demanding and limits need to be set. I find it a difficult balance and perhaps thats part of the problem, maybe I am inconsistent so sending mixed messages. This thread is really good for me thinking this through out loud, thank you

when ds5 gets like this I just say to him 'well I'd like to go to Barbados for a month with a personal trainer, chef, butler and maid to look after my every whim and take me where I want to go whenever I want and buy what I want, but it will not happen so boo hoo for Mummy' or something along the same lines, he then laughs and it seems to difuse the subject!