Please help with 8 yr old dd's bed time....

[unicorn]

Always had problems with dd (defiance etc)but
currently beginning to lose the plot because she won't go to bed/sleep without lots of disturbance - including last night keeping her younger brother awake.
She goes to her room after a story and is allowed her own quiet time - but doesn't seem happy to unwind on her own. She won't leave us alone, she is forever coming downstairs or make loads of noise so that we go up to her.
She is often very tired (she is very physical) but doesn't seem to be able to switch off/unwind etc.
We have tried all sorts of approaches, (rewards shouting etc) but nothing really works.
Anyone any ideas..?

It all sounds very conrolling...try asking her what she thinks is the best plan ? Go with that.
Why don't you want to spend time with her in the evenings ?

Mozhe I agree - we have found that letting our ds choose what he wants to do is very successful in the evenings. Sometimes he'll play a board game with me or dh, sometimes he'll want time on Pc, play with lego etc. He likes to have quality time with us after ds1 has gone to bed. We don't get adult time until he's in bed but that's just the way it is. Sometimes dh moans about it if he's tired and I find it a chore if dh is out for the evenings, but it works.

It sounds as if there is a bit of a psychological battle going on here. If she knows that you are desperate to get her upstairs so that you can watch telly (as SHE perceives it) she will play up. she thinks she is missing something interesting/exciting.

Perhaps you have to work on the message you are sending her first? I know I would always have a big challenge getting any of mine settled down if they thought they were missing something.

That said, I always found interesting story tapes that were saved only for bed time worked wonders. - Harry Potter, Just William, Famous Five etc.

I still read a bedtime story with my dd, but then she reads another chapter on her own when I go downstairs.

Also, she knows I am only going to be washing dishes and doing paperwork - very dull.

unicorn, to be honest I really struggle to understand people who ask for help the get defensive when it's given.

Many people here agree that you've got unrealistic expectations, that it's unfair to give an 8 year old a bed time more befitting of a 4 year old.

You have said you send her up at 7.30 because you want some quiet time. Yet in your last post you argue with me that this isn't the case.

Anyway, the point is,

• you're not happy with how bed time is going, hence your OP

• your dd isn't happy with it, so she's playing up.

• most people agree 7.30 is too early.

My boys go to bed later (8/8.30) but once we've eaten, they've played & helped tidy up etc.

Like I said, they snacksabout 4 & do homework. Then they usually play by themselves till 6. Then sometimes help get dinner ready, we eat together, then sometimes we'll play, other times (more often) they'll read in bed till lights out.

If you followed a similar pattern, you probably wouldn't 'loose' so much times as you're clearly worrying about, because you wouldn't then be sitting down to eat. You could go straight into tv mong-mode, esp if you make sure when you discuss the new later bed time solution, you include them helping clear and tidy up at the end, so at 8.30 there's no kids, no dinner, no clearing up to worry about.

I get the impression you wanted replies that would help you keep your dd quiet at 7.30, rather than telling you you need to change the 7.30 not your dd.

Tho does sound like you need help/strategies to help her be more independant. Does she need loads of time & attention from you generally, or just at bed time? (If it is just at bed time, then maybe your problem will be solved) Does she play with the brother?

I'm defensive about being judged by someone who doesn't know me or my dd ernest.
Advice is one thing - criticism is another.

When I want quiet time I also said for her too. She is, as I said highly active, and I repeat is tired after school/activities etc.
She is ready for bed whether you think the time appropriate or not - the problem is that she can't let go enough to go to sleep.

Anyway, having just asked her about it - the time really doesn't seem to be the issue, apparently her room is too warm!

Thanks for all the advice, but please remember every child and parent is different, and just because it works for you doesn't mean it is right for everyone.

Hello
so do you think it IS that her room is too hot or that she can't unwind ? It seems odd that she hasn't mentioned that before? You say she is defiant in other areas could it just be that this is a battleground she has "picked" as it were?
Kids with ASD and hyperactivity can often have sleep problems and my son fell into that group. We found what he ate was having a huge effect on his behaviour - milk in particular made him sleepless and angry. I'm NOT NOT NOT suggesting that she has any syndrome but maybe if she is overtired something maybe affecting that and a tired child is always going to be a handful. Could be that if you can crack the sleep thing then the defiance will subside.
With my son we stopped milk, chocolate and juice or squash and he slept really well within the week ( we also pulled all additives).It might be worth looking at what she eats or drinks in the evening - or of course it may not be relevent for your child at all.

( and I say very quietly.....just my own view but you asked for views ......could well be crap...... that personally I think her bedtime is a bit too early and that a child who struggles to entertain them selves - as two of mine have - may need to be set incremental targets for alone time , starting with ten minutes and working up and ideally given ideas for things to do or targets. Started eldest playing on his own by asking for a specific picture or story or model to be made and then he got a reward if the result was good. Being in her room with what feels to her like HOURS ahead - which of course it isn't - may agitate her enormously whereas being sent up to her room with a ten minute task may be less daunting. Just an idea . Once she is not feeling so overwhelmed she may start to cope better)

well asking her sounds like it was a good idea.....now you can make the room nice and cool for her

SOme children just seem to want more attention. Every weekend when my sister calls we have this - my twins are just playing and hers will hardly let her speak and she gets to frustrated - why is it mine play nad hers as soon as she's on the phone have to try to stop her? I can't really answer that. Hers seem to have a desire to stop her doing anything which is not interacting with them when she's in the house

A glass of water before bed might cool her down as well .

Over the years I have had people tell me I am too relaxed with regard to my DS's 8 yrs almost 9 yrs olds bedtime etc. basically there has never been one. He sleeps when he is ready. He is as I type this in bed reading. Some nights he will be asleep quickly others he will read until 9.30-10pm, depending on how awake he is. He always gets up in the morning though and is not really tired...think he has my genes where sleeping is concerned.

I do think that children need time with their parents and the older they get the more they want. My Ds always wants to be with me, but when DP is home is happy to go into his room earlier than normal and watch a dvd before reading and then sleeping.

My way of looking at it is I don't like being told what to do and I don't tell my son what to do, I do discuss things with him down to what clothes he wants when we go shopping. I rarely make a decision concerning him without discussing it with him first. Right or wrong it works for us.

OK I actually spoke to my ds about this thread and asked what he thought . Basically I put the scenario of wheterh he would like me to let him unwind for an hour before bed, he can play/amuse himself in his room etc then lights out when time for sleep. Ds did not like the idea at all. He said he enjoys having relaxing time with me. Also asked him about meal time, he said he would feel sad if we didnt eat together as he likes us all talking over tea (and him nicking food off my plate ). We spoke about how things change as he gets older and he said when he is odler he would want to read to himself and for me to put lights out later, but he doesnt want that now only when he is older.

I am glad I asked/talked to him about it because it was nice to get his perspective. Also reaffirmed when no.2 arrives we need to ensure we still have 1-1 time together. We played junior scrabble tonight and he won

I also think that because he knows I will make 1-1 time with him he lets me get on with other things when I need too.

Unicorn,

None of us are childrens entertainers BUT we are all parents. You asked for advice and people on here have given you some excellent advice. I can not remember a time when I didn't eat with my parents it was always a family thing mealtime and I have done the same with my DS.

Also I too disagree with a 7.30 bedtime for an 8yr old....can you imagine being told you had to sit in a room alone while your partner sat with the DC? if not try putting yourself in the same position, go and sit in a room for an hour, where you can hear your partner and DC having fun or tv time and you not being involved.....I can imagine you would find it pretty tedious night after night. Also let your partner and dc have dinner together while you are in the other room, you can smell the food but you aren't allowed it because you have already eaten much earlier.
Why can't your DD sit up with you until 8.30 and then go to bed, you could all eat together and if you don't want a mealtime involving her then make it a snack time....cheese on toast for example. But make sure your dinner is almost ready so when she does go to bed you and partner can have dinner and still have plenty of time together.

IMHO too many parents what "Me" time before family time. Also have you thought hormones could be kicking in with DD? and she could be feeling scared by feelings she is having...therefore causing her to want more time with "mum". There are many reasons she could be "high maintenance" for example....she is a child and wants attention....has she always been like this or has it got worse since DS was born....could just be plain and simple sibling rivalry. Mum had a baby and spent more time with him than with me. Children do not always see things as we want them too...they have their own ideas and opinions and need to be able to express them.

Unicorn - your dd is an "owl", like mine. (Your ds sounds like a "lark".) My "owl" has for many years been wide awake in the evening and difficult to prise out of bed in the morning. The difference is, my owl doesn't particularly want attention from us, but has, in the past done terrible things like go in my bedroom, rifle my make-up bag and grind it all into the carpet; write on walls, furniture, make a noise with siblings and generally trash the house! (Not all those things every night.) And once when she was 5 she disappeared out of the house while I was upstairs running her bath and I had to get the police to scour the area with their helicopters and call down their sniffer dog ....

A child who just interrupted the odd tv prog would be a blessing.

There is good advice here which may work for many but everyone/child is different. We have tried many of the things already suggested - including later bed times the result being it takes her even longer to unwind/go to sleep.
I'm sorry many of you disagree with 7.30, well, I probably disagree with many of your parenting rules, but I wouldn't assume I was right,and the other parent wrong.
It's not that black and white is it?
I think many of you have got stuck with the time issue - which you all have your own opinions on, and that's fair enough.
Again I'm sorry it angers you that I want me time - why is it so heinous?
You may have children with a less energetic disposition, who can play on their own and aren't as intense,I suggest walking in another persons shoes before telling them they are wrong.
We all do what we have to, the best we can.
My dd gets plenty of attention from school pick up to bed time, which is still never enough, as I have tried to explain.
She needs boundaries, and I/dh need space... (someone arrest me!)
Yes she is more of a nightowl- nevertheless I repeat she is tired (whether you believe it or, but I know her better than you!) and needs to be asleep by 9/9.30 at the latest.
It takes her time to 'shut down' - which is why she needs quiet time/ not being stimulated by us.
Out of curiosity what do you all do with your kids before bed? I guess you mustn't watch any tv?
My children don't want to eat later, they have their meal and are more than ready for it, they may also have a snack pre bed which again seems to suit them/us.
I am defensive, as it seems I have been criticised on everything from letting her watch cbeebies, to wanting a bit of me time.
Advice is fine, judgment is something else.

Anyway,last night we swopped dd and ds rooms as ds's room is cooler.
It may be a fluke but both were asleep by 8.30.
And ... no issues this morning.
We will try it again tonight, and if it seems to be working for both of them then we shall switch them round.

Thanks all.

I just wanted to support you on the time thing unicorn. My dd1 is 7y5m old, and goes to bed at 7.30 most nights. THis is the same time as her younger siblings who are 3y7m and 5y5m. She is usually asleep first and recently has been sleeping until 7am (before that it was much earlier- 6 or so). She also watches cbebies before bed - they LOVE the night garden and have allocated each of the characters to themselves, so one is maca-pacca, another is ninky -nonk (or whatever the awwwwwful names are, I cant remember.

Like you, part of the reason that we put them to bed them is that we are exhausted and want a bit of grown up time. Luckily, all of our children seem to be 'larks' like me, not owls like dh!

Sometimes she cant sleep and then gets to come down, have an extra story etc. She is allowed to read in bed for half an hour but is invaribly asleep by the time I go up to put the light out.

We're not routine people, really, but bedtime is one we always had - jammies on, supper, teeth, prayers, story, song, night night, insde about half an hour.

I know that as she gets older she will need a later bedtime, but right now she demonstrably needs the sleep. otoh, I see neighbours kids her age still out playing in the street at 9pm, and I worry about them getting enought sleep - but thats their parents look out, not mine! Different people do things in different ways.

Once a week dd1 and I have snuggle time when we take a snack up to my bed, adn have half an hour of chat and cuddles before bed. I also think a debrief of the day helps - we do it by praying (what and who do you want to say thankyou for today, are you sorry about anything, what will we say please for for tomorrow) and I really feel this calms them down and sets the scene for bed. You wouldnt have to do it as a prayer, just as a wee chat if that suited better.

my 7.5 year old dd1 goes to bed at 7 instead of Fridays wehn she stays up and eats with dh and I, goes to bed at 8.30 ish.

Oh Unicorn I feel bad for you now (not that I was one of the posters who criticised) you just wanted advice and felt you were ostracised over your parenting techniques. Everybody is different and nobody should judge and you are right, you are the only one that knows your daughter.

Good luck with bedroom swapping - seems like a good idea really

Unicorn, I understand that you don't want to change your daughter's bedtime, but earlier you said it was because you want to have adult time - to have a meal with Dad and watch a soap. There's no harm in leaving adult time for another hour - 8.30 / 9.00, focusing on your daughter if she wants it. It's possible that your daughter is feeling excluded, and she's part of the family - adult time is a bit over-rated, when you have kids your whole life changes as I'm sure you know. Surely your soap isn't that important?

Sometimes children need to be taught how to play on their own. Supernanny used a good "play and go away" method the other night, where you start them off with an activity and then leave when they are getting into it. You could do that between 7 and 8 and then start her bedtime. You could try that, but I would try to just cut out the "adult time" first and try to enjoy time with her.

I'm with you on the time thing Unicorn. My DD is 8 and we spend time with her doing story etc until about 7.30pm. She's then in theory got until 8pm when she is supposed to go to sleep, 8.30 on the weekends. She isn't going to sleep at 8, more like 8.30. I can hear her pottering around quite often in her room when she's supposed to be sleeping but generally I let her get on with it as I remember loving time to myself in my room at night when I was her age. She is quite good at unwinding herself on her own with reading, story tapes etc. If she goes to sleep too late I have to go in and wake her at 8am the next morning so she does need the sleep. At one point she was getting really tired, having trouble going to sleep and waking well before 7am. A bit of black out material at the window has made a really big difference so I guess it is small things like the amount of light and room temperature that can make a big difference.

She's hugely intense and however much attention we give her is not enough. She's got dyspraxia and tires easily and does need her sleep. My sanity would be completely out of the window if she was down with us until 8.30pm and when I am deranged the whole family suffers badly !

However we have been having tea at 5pm and reading through this thread I think probably that is a bit early so I'm going to try giving her a more substantial snack when she comes in from school then have tea a bit later.

so should i whisper that my 9yo often goes to bed at 6:30 with his db and ds . I'm with you on the adult time, infact just me time is good
Chocolateteapot - maybe a naive question but is tiring easily a sign of dyspraxia? Obviously i realise there are lots of others, just something i am trying to sort out really in my head.

Oh and just in support of you Unicorn (although i have no idea how to sort your dd out, as i have been lucky with my 3dc and they have always gone straight to sleep, and stayed in their beds) but how many mnetters are having adult time now, while their dc are in the room?

Should i also whisper that he is quite often to be seen watching cbeebies totally absorbed.

Marymoocow, I think the tiredness part is that she has to work much much harder than the other children to do things like hold the pen and write and a whole other load of physical stuff. It's quite painful watching her walk into school in the mornings as she weaves right across the playground and when she walks down the school corridors she sometimes bounces off the walls poor thing. Her SENCO did warn me that she would tire more easily because of it and she does. she loves in the Night Garden and Lazy Town and can sometimes been seen curled up next to her brother watching them.

thanks for the reply chocolateteapot. Nice to know that there are others curling up and vegging out.

unicorn - in response your OP, I think my DD may have been moonlighting as your DD, does she sit at the top of the stairs calling mummy or daddy firstly very quietly and sweetly, getting progressively louder until she's screaming it so you pay her attention? If she does then it is definately my DD but if you like you can keep her for a bit and train her to sleep
Mine's 8 and is a bloody nightmare. I can try and put her to bed at any time, let her watch TV, not watch TV, read a book, not read a book, play, not play - do what the F-ing hell she likes but we still have tantrums when it's lights out. You are not alone (why are boys so much easier?????????? DS is a little angel - he has a halo and everything, DD has 2 little devils horns just poking up through her hair, I am dreading the teenage years (gulp))