Nearly 4 year old DD challenging everything

[wapphighwood]

My DD is nearly 4, she has always been hard work, that's her temperament but dealing with it is getting very wearing and I've found myself, at times, losing my patience and then the situation escalated further. I think we need a new approach to her behaviour as we don't seem to be getting anywhere.

Examples: not so much at pre school (although they have said she can be defiant) she challenges pretty much everything she is asked to do, she wants to be in charge, we try our best to not give in and have clear boundaries and consequences but she is so stubborn she will not give in and we have to reach some sort of compromise to move on with life ( we would be late everywhere otherwise!) At times ive had to be more forceful than I'd like as she will not back down e.g pinning down to do teeth or into a car seat. We've tried reward charts and marbles, she isn't bothered. Is it to much to do as she is asked for once?!!!!!
She is a bright girl and has a scarily good memory, sometimes I wonder if there is maybe an underlying condition. She never stops talking from 5.30am, until bedtime and a lot of it is silly made up language that is extremely annoying. If course I ask her to be quiet but she can't or won't. She has extreme reactions to being told off, is this just a normal emotional child? Her sleep is still bad, wakes in night wanting to come in with us which we don't allow and up super early despite still being tired, so behaviour could be tiredness, she does 5 days 8-5 at preschool

Wapp, I am watching your thread with interest because I have a reception age dd (just turned 5 and started school) and I could have written your thread. I have been searching for answers for a while now, dh just describes her behaviour as challenging but I am on the cusp of wanting to request an assessment for her. She doesn't tick all of the boxes but certainly does show several traits for PDA.

She hates being told what to do - in the end we try to make it seem like she is in control for example giving her a narrow choice...
DD = "I don't want you to brush my hair."
Me= " I'll brush it before breakfast or after breakfast, you choose." or "you have a quick go and then I'll have a go." Like your dd she hates being told off. Often she enters into negotiation.

It is extremely waring, and tbh it is a relief that she is now at school because previously she had no sense of fear and I have had to watch her every step of the way (getting better with this) and coupled with her somewhat unpredictable moods has left me not wanting to take her very far in the holidays at times (I have other children too), so I think I have become a bit isolated from other parents with a similar age child. She is also very bright and has a wide range of vocabulary, seems to read numbers well and yes good memory. DD is also full on she does thing 110%. She doesn't like to leave an activity until she is ready. Apparently she told me, that she shouted at the teacher yesterday because she wasn't ready to move onto the next activity, no doubt I will be hearing more at parents evening from the teacher. Tiredness might have something to do with it also, I try to ensure she gets early nights but she can also wake early 5.30/6.00 am too. She appears very confident, will talk to adults easily and does not seem to easily recognise authority (or at least does not seem intimidated by it.) I am waiting to see how dd progresses through reception but if things don't change it may well be, that she will require an assessment. I have often felt very alone with all of this or like I have done something wrong...but her elder sibling has not shown these traits and was different altogether as a small child, I assume I have parented them both in a similar way.

Thanks for your reply, it means a lot to know not the only ones experiencing this. I too sometimes think I'm doing it all wrong or must have done something wrong when she was a baby to make her behave like this. She drove us to very low points with sleep deprivation over the years, I'm worried she had picked up negative vibes from us and she is reacting to that, although we always try not to let it show

This is us too Wapp! A bright child who is very strong-willed, defiant and demanding. It's exhausting! Hates getting in trouble and gets very anxious about it. Has been a poor sleeper and tends to get over-tired. Wants to be the boss in everything and likes things done just so. Very sociable but tends to annoy other kids. And no awareness of authority so who knows how school is going to go next year!

I think we will all have our interesting few years when they become teenagers!

Another thing my dd does that we are at a loss as to what to try next is that she refuses to go to the toilet despite obviously needing to go, she is adamant she can hold it, then ends up with wet pants (not full on accidents) it's a control thing for sure. Again tried lots of tactics with no results, it's been going on for months!

Yes, Wap my dd also holds on for the toilet, we also have more wet pants than usual. I have put it down to the fact that she gets wrapped up in things and becomes distracted but it is interesting that you mention that it could be to do with control.
Halloween this evening = trick or treating, my dd is hugely excited and appears to be having mini meltdowns! Sadly but perhaps not unexpectedly she has not been invited to any parties.

Snap for holding on for the loo. Mine only asks to the toilet first thing in the morning and then at tea time. Otherwise I have to drag her there under protest. Mind you, she drinks very little.

Do either of your kids have sensory issues at all?

My DD has quite an extreme fear of the dark, not sure if that counts as a sensory issue? Now the evening is darker she is scared walking outside even though I'm with her. She won't go into her room upstairs unless the light is on, lamp must be left on at night etc.

My dd insists that her bedroom light is on overnight (dimmer switch, so down low). Doesn't seem to worry about it being dark outside though. Sometimes she has reacted to loud noise but not really in a way that limits her i.e she recently went to a disco and was fine, I think this is in combination with if she is tired and not a regular thing so not really flagged up, just more along the lines that I have observed it a few times.. At the moment she hates anything being thrown away that she is in anyway connected with - currently it is a paper napkin leftover from her party.

Feel like you’re all writing exactly what I couldn’t have written myself. The behavioural elements, the control, hating being told off, HOLDING HER WEE. Some sensory issues when she was younger ( now4) such as hated getting hands messy when baking or crafting but has got better nowadays.

This isn’t great for my anxiety as I worry massively over be smallest thing. In a way I hate that I’ve even found this thread because now I’m going to be worrying. At 2.5 she went through a phase of not always responding to her name. I got her assessed for Autism and they ruled it out although I’ve continued to be weary despite what they said.

Do yours make good eye contact? Mine does and doesn’t in equal measures which makes it difficult for me to decide if it’s a factor.

Took dd out to soft play today and although, I worried the whole time that there might be some kind of incident - there wasn't! Maybe, it is a glimmer that dd is turning some kind of corner. Might do a bit more research into the control thing though, to see if there is anything that can be done to help.
Will monitor the eye contact aspect although I think she does maintain it pretty well.

Do any of you think that your child's behaviour is related in any way to their diet? Just a thought.....

HairyMaclary5 interesting you mention diet as I often wonder this. She definitely reacts strongly to sugar, get hyperactive and then crashes. I generally give her a healthy diet but of course there are treats and grandparents which I can’t avoid.

Interested to hear other thoughts on diet..

I've not made a direct connection but I am careful to limit E numbers and ration sweets although she does eat a fair bit of chocolate I suppose and dessert at school is usually sugary in content I think.
I've made more of a connection with behaviour/mood and tiredness I think, this seems to have greater impact. DD doesn't usually drink sugary drinks but likes honey with her porridge, so there are sweet elements in her diet that aren't necessarily E number related and even though she may eat something sweet after tea (small portion of sweet something), it doesn't seem to affect her getting off to sleep. DD just seems to do things with a 110% gusto, (including concentrating on something like colouring if it takes her interest).

Do any of you wonder if we just take life too seriously and force a “label” on our child? I am constantly in and out of thoughts with “she’s normal” “this can’t be normal”. But I wonder if we’re respecting too much of our 4 year olds who are strong willed and defiant. Long term, they’re good traits to have if nurtured well...?

(Can you tell I’m panicking and making myself feel better?)

Expecting* not respecting

breathandrelax - this is the viewpoint my dh takes - that dd is at one end of 'normal' (the word I use, not him) and doesn't display any worrying behaviours. He thinks dd has the potential to make a great success out of life (either that or she'll come off the rails), right now I am believing that it is going to be the former and not the latter of these outcomes, so yes, you could be right, my dh certainly thinks this way.

Yeah I do wonder about too much sugar with my DD. She is constantly hungry, demands food all day long - drives me mental! I often think its boredom, whenever she has nothing to occupy her she will turn to her stomach!

breath -it's so hard to know what's normal isn't it. I find it hard to get advice from professionals, as this seems to be a difficult age anyway, and it seems kids don't really get assessed until they are a bit older. I certainly know my daughter is very different to her peers but in some ways that's quite refreshing....I think!!?!

I've been advised that mine may have sensory issues which may explain some of her quirks. Hoping she will just grow out of it and that's it nothing more serious.

Wow this also sounds just like my ds in reception class. I’m wondering if any of yours get little tics from time to time? My ds has had a throat clearing one, sniffing one and blinking one. Nothing presently though! Just constant and extreme silliness!

My dd was described as very confident by another parent today but this other parent doesn't see what else goes hand in hand with it. I am visiting the GP next week to discuss a referral to child psychiatrist/psychologist next week (we have private health insurance which will cover costs if agreed). It feels awful admitting that I feel that something is 'wrong' with dd but in the same breath I feel I need a second opinion on this. It is so difficult to know if it is wilful behaviour that she will grow out of but right now there is something else that is worrying me about dd's behaviour that I don't feel entirely comfortable discussing that has prompted this request. I don't feel I can confide in anyone about the action I am taking (requesting referral) because I don't want others to think there is a problem where there isn't one but if there is some more support/advice that can be given then I am 100% going to go for it for both of our sakes. Feeling isolated with this at the moment, now I have made the decision to do it, I just want to get on with it...have a really good friend visiting tomorrow, think I will confide in her. No tics noticed belt, dd went through a phase of pulling at rough skin on her lip but seems to have outgrown this.

Good luck Lavendar. I felt sick with anxiety when I was getting mine tested at 2.5. You will be fine regardless of the outcome. Take comfort in knowing you’re doing your best for you lovely dd.

I’ll continue to bury my head for now. Not ready to open up that can of worms again. They ruled asd out then. But who knows. We have parent evening in a few weeks so let’s see what they say.

Does anyone know what implications some sort of diagnosis would mean? We really don't want dd treated any differently at school unless she really needs to be.

I think it depends on the level of diagnosis. Schools should provide support for learning difficulties, and at the very least they will be aware of her needs so will keep that in mind as the years go by. If you find your dd is different and needs support, the school SENCO will arrange to provide support whether through OT or emotional support. Best of luck and keep us in the loop. I’d be interested to hear what they say x

I don't think dd has any learning difficulties - quite the opposite! It is probably more emotional support that she will need if anything but it would be useful to get an experts point of view and take it from there.

I have just stumbled across this while looking for advice about my almost 4 year old dd and I feel that you have all described her perfectly. It’s a relief to hear that i’m not alone but also a worry that you have also recognised your dds as being different and have such similar descriptions. Mine is bright, a very good and constant talker, is starting to be able to write and knows her letters BUT she is so stubborn that she can’t be reasoned with or bribed, hates being told off and reacts very badly, negotiates absolutely everything, is defiant and awkward and needs my constant attention. She is very affectionate with me but is shy with others and doesn’t make friends easily. At nursery she has one friend and says she doesn’t want any more. I think it upsets her when this friend plays with others but she refuses to talk to me about it. She holds her wee and has to have a night light on. I didn’t realise these were things. She’s not bothered by the dark outside though. Just in her bedroom. I’m more concerned about the wee thing because she’ll be going to school next year and I don’t want accidents there. I’d be interested to hear what your GP says Lavender. I hope it goes well. I also feel it’s an emotional support thing rather than learning.

It's a tough one...how much can be put down to age and what is the likelihood of them outgrowing some of these traits, I suppose are a couple of questions you ask yourself.
In my dd's case I need to seek a bit of help because when dd has become really wound up and cross with herself, she has scratched herself (3 times this has happened at roughly 6 week intervals), and it is outside my remit of knowing how to cope/manage that is mainly why I am seeking help...in regards to the rest of her behaviours if it hadn't been for this, I would probably have waited another year to see what happens.