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Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

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Original poster

Can we have a discussion about children lying?

35 replies

FrannyandZooey · 14/05/2007 09:09

What makes children lie?

Do they grow out of it? When, and how?

How do you distinguish between story-telling and lying?

Do you punish lying?

Do you lie to your own children?

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NotanOtter · 14/05/2007 09:09

supposedly its a bright child that lies !

Original poster

FrannyandZooey · 14/05/2007 09:10

LOL that's always a good excuse

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Nbg · 14/05/2007 09:12

Interesting convo.
I'll be watching this as dd has started to tell the odd fib here and there.

How old is your dc F&Z?

Original poster

FrannyandZooey · 14/05/2007 09:15

He is 4. Up until a few months ago he was literally incapable of telling anything but the truth but gradually he has become capable of lying, and in the last month has caught me out a few times by his now rather convincing lies.

I have just been musing about it and it is an interesting subject, isn't it? I have a kind of theory that lying can originate from too much pressure from the parents - putting the child in a position where they can't live up to expectations so they need to lie to protect themselves from failure / interference. Any thoughts on that?

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Nbg · 14/05/2007 09:19

Yes I think I would agree with that.
My dd has been lying about things that she knows that she should do. For example, flushing the toilet, washing hands, finishing her dinner (thats a biggie atm) and funny because I have noticed we put an immense amount of pressure on her for that.

I have tried to explain that when she says things like that she is lying and that it is naughty but I dont really think she grasps it yet.

NotanOtter · 14/05/2007 09:19

my four year old tells the most 'adorable' lies
full descriptions of goblins in his room and how actually it was his 12 yer old sister who woke him and told him to sing loudly round the house at 5.30 am

Hassled · 14/05/2007 09:21

Children lie because at some point they realise they can - the usual testing the boundaries stuff. I have no doubt my teenagers still lie to me on occasion - but it's more to "protect" me ("I only had a couple of beers, honest") than out of any sort of maliciousness - to some extent they tell me what they think I want to hear. My 4 year old exaggerates and will occasionally deny having done something he's very clearly done, and I've pointed out that if he lies, I'll never be completely sure that he's telling the truth when it might be really important - I think the message is getting through. Certainly by 8, the message has got through to DS2 - he's very (too?)honest. No, I don't punish lying - I reason with them, and try to emphasise how trust/honesty etc matters. And no, I try not to lie about the big stuff - little things like "You can't have any ice-cream because we've run out" to avoid an argument, but not the big stuff.

Original poster

FrannyandZooey · 14/05/2007 09:23

Yes ds lies about having tidied up and also about things to do with the toilet

I have tried to explain why lying is wrong but it is hard at this age

I was talking about what would happen if Mummy started to lie about having done the shopping, because I didn't feel like doing it, etc

however I know the truth is if I said I didn't feel like doing the shopping, dp would help me out, whereas if ds says he doesn't feel like tidying up, we would probably insist he does it anyway

so lying is the natural conclusion I guess

I like the goblins! Bit spooky when they have such conviction about it, isn't it?

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NotanOtter · 14/05/2007 09:25

lying in our house causes more 'scenes' than the damn 'deed'
My teenagers and pre-teen lie all the time but are learning that its better to face the music than have one of mums 'scenes'
I get cross about lying because i always know when they are ...i need honesty witin these four walls to be able to nurture mutual respect
with small people its all part of development
with big ones it is NOT a nice trait
I have a friend who 'lies' all the time and she is a lonely bird

Original poster

FrannyandZooey · 14/05/2007 09:25

Hassled thanks for that post - interesting to hear from someone with a wide age range of children

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Nbg · 14/05/2007 09:27

lol I like the goblins

Original poster

FrannyandZooey · 14/05/2007 09:27

How / when do you think they grow out of it, NAO?

If you always know when they are lying it does not sound like too much of a problem, if you see what I mean!

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Boco · 14/05/2007 09:35

My dd who is nearly 5 is still incapable of lying about not doing as she's been asked etc, in fact she'll immediately grass herself up if she's done anything remotely naughty. If i say she can have the last cake, she'll need to check it out with daddy first, make absolutely sure - she's become very preoccupied with right and wrong. I'm sure where its come from as i don't think either of us are overly strict.

She has started to lie just to see how far she can trick me though, always silly things and it's purely for entertainment. She told me that at school they had macaroni cheese at snack time instead of the usual slice of apple - and she was so convincing, she kept it going for ages before dissolving into giggles and admitting it wasn't true. I was getting really perplexed and questioning her for ages. I suppose its more of a silly story than a lie, and not something i get cross about as it's an expression of her imagination. I'd obviously get cross if it was just dishonesty to get out of doing something.

When she was 2 she ate hand soap and threw up, - and told me that she'd done it because a lady called Avril had come into the bathroom and told her to. Again, very convincing!

This could be bad when she's older - i'm obviously quite easily duped!

sunnysideup · 14/05/2007 09:55

You're right Franny. Lying is a tool of the powerless....your example of the tidying room thing is spot on; children of four don't have the emotional or developmental tools to negotiate on more than a basic level and they basically don't come from a place where they can say "well, I've decided not to do it".

I must admit I haven't really 'spoken' to ds about it yet; it is so painfully obvious when he lies, and he knows I know.....I suppose I ought to speak to him about why it's not good really...but it is totally understandable. And i think maybe not worth pursuing for a while yet.

frogs · 14/05/2007 10:07

Well, dd2 is clearly a genius, since she's been lying quite plausibly since she was 2.5.

Initially it was a bedtime avoidance tactic -- "Mummeeee, mummeee, done a poo in my nappeeeee".

She's since progressed to really advanced lying: hiding things (usually items of clothing she's taken agin for some reason) and denying all knowledge, or delving into older brother and sister's things, taking stuff and then denying all knowledge. Also hiding clothes she's weed in, and denying ditto. Also saying she's done things we've told her to when this is manifestly not the case.

With her it's all about control -- she's fiendishly determined, and very very cunning, and uses lying as a tool to arrange things the way she wants them to be. She is also very loving, very funny and extremely charming, before you all think I'm rearing the spawn of Cruella de Vil. We're hoping for a great future at RADA, and/or a lucrative career in sales or advertising, so that we can be kept in the style to which we would like to become accustomed.

sunnysideup · 14/05/2007 10:18

awful gender stereotyping alert here, but it does seem to me that the girls 'get' their ability to control situations by what they say earlier; wouldn't be surprising as they do mature earlier. The girls in DS class at school are to a person, all much more controlling than the boys.

Frogs I think you're right she is going to go far

Original poster

FrannyandZooey · 14/05/2007 11:30

Yes I think it is about control

ds and I spend much of our day tussling for the upper hand I think or should that be

Telling him I doubt the truth of what he is saying, and asking him to tell the truth, has absolutely no effect. I think this is the bit I object to - not the fact he has had a go at fooling me, but that when asked outright he will deny everything, very convincingly. It seems kind of disrespectful to go and check whether he has told the truth, rather than taking his word for it, but I don't want to encourage him to think that you can get out of things by lying.

Tricky.

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sunnysideup · 14/05/2007 11:36

Tis tricky. I know exactly what you mean about whether you check on what he's said. It kind of knocks that lovely relationship of trust. I do think though that it is not a bad thing to do. It's part of life to know that if we tell a lie we may be found out. how else do we experience for ourselves how much nicer it feels to be believed and to not have that feeling of dread that you are about to be found out?

Luckily for me it's been so bleedin' obvious when ds has lied that he has pretty much known that he's on a losing wicket as soon as the words are out of his mouth

Original poster

FrannyandZooey · 14/05/2007 11:39

I guess though most times I would find out in the long run anyway - if he hasn't put his toys away, I will see them at bedtime, without having to be sneaky and check

however by that time he will probably have forgotten all about it, do you think?

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Original poster

FrannyandZooey · 14/05/2007 11:40

and yes ds used to be blindingly obvious when he fibbed or would usually tell me about 10 secs later

"Mummy I wasn't telling the truth when I said that"

but now is a shocking dissembler

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frogs · 14/05/2007 11:43

Ah, but SSU, dd2 will never, ever, admit to being wrong/lying whatever you want to call it. She's realised at the age of 3.5 that if you just front it out sufficiently brazenly, there's not much anyone can do. Grrr.

A friend of mine had quite a good technique for giving her dd another chance to tell the truth without having to lose face by backing down. She'd say, "Are you telling me the truth, or are you joking?" which I think is quite clever as it takes the accusation of lying out of the equation. My dd2 wouldn't actually fall for that, but I think my other two probably would have taken the bait.

MrsSpoon · 14/05/2007 11:47

My DS1 is still lying at 8, in fact more often or not his first port of call is a lie when you ask him about something. I punish the lying and try to make sure that he understands that the punishment is not for doing 'x', it's for the lie that came after when he was asked about it.

Original poster

FrannyandZooey · 14/05/2007 11:49

Ah I will try the joke thing or I may say "are you tricking me?" Ds very much likes the idea of tricking someone

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Mercy · 14/05/2007 11:51

My dd, just 6, has started telling lies in the last few months. I don't mind in one sense because I know it's a normal part of a child's development.

What does annoy me though is how she involves and sometimes blames her little brother for the things she has done, eg, sneaking a chocolate rabbit out of the fridge. And denying that she has done such a thing, even though they both have chocolate round their mouths let alone the fact that ds can't even open the fridge (yet).

Original poster

FrannyandZooey · 14/05/2007 11:55

Yes putting the blame on someone else is just a LOW thing to do

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