what do you think about smacking?

[Rkayne]

Just wondering what other people's thoughts were about smacking?

Personally, I'm really against it. DD is still quite young so I've not had much cause for it so far anyway, but the most I could ever see myself doing is a light tap on the hand (say if she was reaching for something dangerous or physically hurting another child). DH is of the generation that got rulers over the back of the hands in school and so is not quite as horrified by it as I am but would still reserve any physical punishment for truly bad behaviour.

But I recently heard that a friend of mine regularly smacks her kids for what seem to me like pretty minor offences - say not wanting to put on their shoes when they're in a hurry to get out the door. Ok, so I agree this is frustrating. It might even make you angry enough to 'feel' like giving a smack if your child is constantly testing you. But surely there are better ways to respond?

I'm really not trying to judge, just wanting to know what other people think.

Very interesting child perspective of smacking. This is a conversation that my nephew had with his dad.

"Dad, I think smacking is bullying" Nephew
"Why do you say that" Dad
"Well, how would you like it if a person twice your size gave you a smack, that's the same as a parent giving their kids a smack" Nephew

FOOD FOR THOUGHT

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I think that smacking can be used in a controlled way. It involves smacking as a punishment or indication that there has been bad behavior, not as a release of anger or frustration on the part of the parent. I don't see that smacking (as long as pain is not inflicted) is any worse than time outs which, depending on the child, can be equally as humiliating or "cruel." The punishment has to match the offense, of course and the child's temperment. And I don't think that spanking is should be about inflicting pain. It also has to be age appropriate. (I have never spanked my 19 mo. old son - he is just too young. My 8 and 9 year old stepkids have been spanked on rare occasions and my 13 year old step daughter is too old for spanking.) I was brought up in a house where we knew that if we were really naughty we would get spanked. I don't really remember getting spanked very often and certainly don't associate it with pain or suffering. And I don't think that spanking has to be associated with violence. I am a very non-violent person and would never dream of solving conflict by hitting someone.

I agree with SofiaAmes and Bloss about smacking being used in a controlled way and not being about inflicting pain. it goes back to my original point about the definition of smacking: I include a smart tap on the hand in what I categorise as smacking. It doesn't hurt the child so much as shock him/her.

In this debate, some people seem to equate smacking with beating - which is a totally different thing.

Our ds (22 months) is now getting the occasional smack on the back of the hand. He is now getting old enough to know what he SHOUDN'T be doing - but not yet old enough to "negotiate" with.

We never smack out of anger, but only when he has consistently and repeatedly done something he knows he is not supposed to. Prior to a smack we will go through a range of other options - distraction, bringing out a different toy, removal to the hall way when he starts his theatrical tantrum (an early form of time out - so hopefully later, if we choose to use that technique, it won't be too distressing), a cuddle...

It is important for children to also know the boundaries of what is acceptable. Interestingly, ds does not yet say the word NO - partly I think because we have gone to such efforts always to use positive words with him - ie what he SHOULD do, rather than what he should stop doing.

I know I was smacked on occasion when I was young. But my main "fear" memory was the threat of getting my mouth washed out with soap if I used bad language! I'm sure it even happened once (but Mum claims to have no recollection of this).

Even though we were smacked when youung, my Mum, as a teacher, was very opposed to the "belt" (the Scottish equivalent of the cane). Her comment was that the kids would often prefer the belt as it was quick and over and done with - and they were used to violence at home. As secondary school kids, this was preferable to detention or punishment homework.

At the risk of sounding stuck up/judgemental...

The thing I notice about parents smacking (including 2 of the families on the programme) is that the vast majority of parents do not smack in a controlled way and many go beyond a tap on the hand. There was a telling moment when the mother of the 3 y.o. on the programme admitted that at times it WAS about how angry/tired she was. Also when she smacked the little boy in the car park she pulled his trousers down so she could get his bare backside. Why do that? Why is that necessary, to me that just seems to be a way of humiliating a child...So, while I can accept that there may be some parents (Bloss!!) who have a consistent, controlled discipline policy that involves a smack, if we're honest and take a trip round a town centre on a Saturday it's clear most people don't have that sort of framework.

Just out of curiosity, could one of our U.S. mums explain what they mean by "paddling"? Thanks to an episode of Ricki Lake on this very topic I thought that paddling meant using some sort of ping-pong bat! Sorry, but there were mums on their defending their use of the "monkey paddle", a ping-pong bat in size and shape but with a monkey face on it....Very odd programme, one mum thought it was fine to wallop her 18m old for throwing a Bible,simply because it was the Bible!

Wow, bloss, I'm amazed. Not about the smacking thing, but about the fact that you haven't once lost your temper in 5 years! How can you have a husband and a child and never ever get so angry that you maybe just shouted something at them that didn't really mean to? I'm not talking about flying off the handle in a fit of rage, but surely we all loose our cool just a little bit sometimes?

Sorry - I'm not trying to have a go at you, I just can't imagine.

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But Bloss and SofiaAmes, if there was another form of discipline that you could use, that was just as effective, would you give it a go? It did seem a shame on that programme that the Christian couple would not at least try the psychologist's suggestions. Sometimes you think that your way works just fine, but then you try something new and suddenly discover that it works better.

I agree that most forms of discipline can be just as distressing for a child, but I still don't like the idea of physically hurting them. And if you say that your smacks do not hurt them, then why do it at all? Why not use the yellow card/red card system and then take a treat away from them? At least with that the child gets fair warning and they understand that if they continue with their behaviour they will have to forgoe a treat. I think this teaches them a much better lesson than smacking, which is just a short sharp punishment with no real lesson behind it.

So would you try something else if it worked just as well as smacking?

Rkayne, I have done the bit where you go into another room but I have screamed or jumped hard and it did help a little. Like I said the big hug gave me chance to think about what was really going on and stop my child and myself and it made me feel better than screaming in another room but whatever works other than striking out it's a bit like this laugh/smile therapy... probably!

Glad this subject has been raised it is really interesting. It can be really really difficult being a parent and I'm told it doesn't get easier! Wish I'd seen the programme.

One day my mom and I were in a store and this preschooler was in a shopping cart with his mom. He was screaming like a crazy child for candy. We watched the whole incident since we were looking in the same area of the store. The mother kept telling the boy to stop crying and tried everthing verbally to make him stop crying. (I dont mean verbal abuse). He didnt care he wanted that candy and he had the attitude that he was gonna throw a fit till he got it that was that pretty much. After screaming throughout the kids clothes section (about 10 min) the mom was about fed up with the tantrum she stood him up and gave his a little smack on the butt enough to make him realize throwing a fit like this over candy would not be tolerated. After that the boy sat down and didnt make a sound afterwards he was like a totally different child. The customers seemed to be glad his mom finally spanked him and ended this annoying situation. To me that child needed a good spanking because it took that to make him realize he was not getting the candy no matter how much he threw a fit. To me this is one example why I feel paddling is good for some situations.

Rhubarb, I don't think that spanking is the only viable form of discipline and it is certainly not the only form that I use. It really depends on the child, the situation and the parent. I always give fair warning that a spank is imminent if a certain type of behaviour continues. And I don't think that removing a treat is always an effective way of disciplining...it really depends on the child. I would certainly listen to other people's suggestions of how to discipline and often do try ideas that seem like they would be effective.

There are so many facets to this debate! Personally I'm a non-smacker, although I've smacked once, and once only, when my child was fiddling with the gas ring - I verbally remonstrated in that 'Mummy really, really, really means it' voice - she giggled, and carried on, at which point I realised that I had to do something drastic and swift if I wasn't going to have a much worse situation on my hands than a shocked toddler. Some areas of the house just have to be totally out of bounds. A gas ring is one. Equally, I'd smack again, if I couldn't see any other alternative to a potentially dangerous situation, and had to act swiftly. But, I do think that smacking can escalate situations, that generally reason/distraction work well, and I also know that one reason that I'm a convinced non-smacker is as much my personality as my child's. I've a quick temper, and I never, ever want to smack in anger - but, despite best intentions, have the capacity to, I know. I'd rather have a near total ban on smacking in my house than smack unecessarily out of my own frustration, even though I see parents around me using the occasional disciplinary smack, and it working really well (I'm not screamingly judgmental about the whole thing!). As someone with a short fuse, I just think it's safer to control myself by going into another room and jumping up and down when frustrated. I think appropriate smacking is fine, just don't trust myself in a temper to be appropriate, so maybe the temperament of the adult should be considered as well as that of the child!

wooow! am impressed with everyone! so theres only me who throws complete hippy fits at my kids and wants to seriously hang them from the ceiling from their big toe?!
smacking shouldnt be an everyday occurence i think most agree, personnaly i am well impressed with how patient you all seem to be, how very rational and calculating in approach..... me however, if they ( the kids) really really piss me off, i smack them. simple as!

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No Custardo, you are honest! I too will put my hand up and say we try to operate a controlled smacking system but sometimes lose it. Yesterday being a prime example I had been up three times during the night with the baby was v tired and couldn't take DS1's continual playing up. Felt awful afterwards, we both had a good cry and I told him I was v sorry. Before anyone calls the NSPCC ( ) I would describe this as uncontrolled overvigerous bum smacking, ie not slapping him about the face or anthing (would never dream of doing this).

I have been in the same boat custardo - my kids are older and I couldn't tell you when I last resorted to smacking.
On all the threads that talk about children not staying in their beds, car seats etc. i feel like replying 'SMACK THEM' but I know I would be drummed out of mumsnet

Also a smack for toddlers who won't stay in their bed works

can I come slinking out of the closet and align myself with the smackers? (occasional!)
Will we have to pay a surcharge for our mumsnet subscriptions?

My husbands ex claims to never smack her kids....and they are absolutely horrid around her: screaming, swearing, hitting, kicking, temper tantrums. I give them the occasional spank when necessary and they are the best behaved children for me. I am always getting compliments on how well behaved they are. Not exactly an unbiased scientific sample, but it works for me.
Have to agree with bloss, that despite sometimes wanting to lock the kids in a closet until their 80th birthday, I do manage to keep my temper most of the time. The only time I really lost it and slapped my husband's stepdaughter (a truly evil child) was when at 11 she gouged a 3 inch scrape out of her 6 year old sister's face with her finger nails as part of a game of "does this hurt?" I refuse to have her at my house any more. Spanking is too good for that child.

SofiaAmes, just out of curiosity, how does your stepkids mother feel about you smacking her kids? While I understand that stepparents need authority to deal with unacceptable behaviour I imagined that any punishment would have to be consistent and respect the wishes of the parent who has the children living with them full-time?

Anyway, I'm obviously a bleeding heart as I feel dreadful for telling DD that she was "thoroughly unpleasant" this morning...

angharad, the mother of my stepkids is not a very nice person or IMO a good mother, so I am not terribly concerned about how she feels. She occasionally complains about my disciplining them, but her major complaint is that I don't feed them enough sweets, crisps and fizzy drinks (i'm not joking!). She also complains when I buy them clothes that are not designer labels, if I don't iron their clothes, if I don't wash all their dirty laundry after returning them from a 3 weeks holiday in italy (that I paid for) when I was 7 months pregnant, etc. etc. My husband, their father, is very happy with how I deal with his children and thinks that I am good for them. Also, the children, (despite the evil stepmother image that their mother tries to paint of me) adore me and love coming to our house. The younger one has been known to say to his mother (much to her chagrin) that I have good rules and he like them. It's hard enough raising your own children, raising someone elses in a way that works not only for them but for you too is even harder.

Just want to show solidarity - yes, I do admit to the occasional smack, I guess a lot more mums do but are reluctant to own up!