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Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

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Original poster

ignoring or telling off for saying "don't care", "shut up", "i hate you" and loud shouting

36 replies

mediterraneo · 15/03/2007 20:09

My ds' little friend (both 3 1/2) always tells his mum this when he doesn't get his way, I think he may have picked up a lot of these expressions from his older brother. Anyway my friend smiles and says nothing. I expect soon my ds will be using these expressions with me, I don't think I will ignore it, but probably find a suitable consequence for his rudeness. What do you do? When ds shouts a lot at me I tell him that if he doesn't stop he will get a sad face on his sticker chart. I hate to be treated like dirt, but I wonder what to do when he starts to use "bad expressions".

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FrannyandZooey · 15/03/2007 20:14

There are parenting options other than ignoring or punishments, but if you want me to pick one of the two it would definitely be ignoring.

Having your 3 yo shout "I hate you" isn't being "treated like dirt" IMO. I hope if it happens to you that you will try to find ways not to make it so personal.

hana · 15/03/2007 20:15

I agree, ignore. I've had this prob with my 2 year old in the past month and the advise I had was to ignore, it had really decreased with that approach - she still says things, but not with same frequency.

indiajane · 15/03/2007 20:19

My children are a bit older (8 and 6) and I certainly wouldn't be happy if they said any of this stuff to me, and indeed they don't. Well, not while I can hear it . I think I would have told them off for being rude when they were younger although I can't recall it.

FrannyandZooey · 15/03/2007 20:21

It's not the nicest thing in the world to happen, but it's really normal. My approach would be to explain why it isn't nice behaviour, and suggest politer alternatives, but most of all wait for them to mature emotionally so they are capable of finding more socially acceptable ways of expressing themselves.

Mercy · 15/03/2007 20:25

At this age ignore it - mostly.

dd is going through this phase atm, but she is almost 6 and there are different reasons obviously when they are older. Still annoys hte hell out of me though!

ds is 3 and he hasn't (yet) copied his sister. I think some of it is down to temperament as much as anything else.

CountTo10 · 15/03/2007 20:26

if ds (2.5) is shouting to get my attention then I simply ignore it - once he stops and starts talking to me normally, I say 'that's better and that i do not respond to shouting. Have to admit having snapped - will you stop shouting at me though on a bad day!!! On the others I think you have to look above it - these are just ways of expressing anger. Acknowlede that it annoys you and then they've got the way in. When ds has told me to shut up (which was my fault as he heard me say it) i explained that it was not nice and gave him an alternative. If you start specific 'punsihments' with this kind of thing then what do you do when he deliberatley smashes you round the head with a chair? You need to have a scale and the punishments need to fit in appropriately.

Original poster

mediterraneo · 15/03/2007 20:26

But how do they learn that it ain't right? When my ds shouts at me because he wants something ,or because he doesn't get his way, or because whatever, I do feel badly treated actually. No point pretending is ok and that it makes me feel good and nice.

Big difference between a 2 and 3 1/2 year old.

Actually when ds will start saying he hates me I will tell him I will always love him, so that was a bad example.

I was thinking more along the lines of asking ds to stop doing something annoying (jumping on table for ex), if he answered don't care, shut up or something like that, I would probably tell him not to speak to me like that and to go to his room, or something like that. It is like with hitting, I would immediately come down hard and send him to his room, or withdraw something etc. I notice some parents ignore, get embarrassed, but don't act. I do ignore a lot of silly things.

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Original poster

mediterraneo · 15/03/2007 20:29

I used to ignore shouting when he was younger, and always made sure he didn't get his own way by shouting, ds is not particularly shouty in fact.

As I said a 3 1/2 is different from a 2 year old.

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FrannyandZooey · 15/03/2007 20:30

They learn that it is not right through you modelling appropriate behaviour, discussing, negotiating, and by becoming more mature and developing the super ego "policeman" part of their brain which stops them from doing "naughty" things. In an ideal world, they want to please you because of the good relationship that you have together. IMO this good relationship can be jeopardised by constantly pulling up and punishing them for annoying but age appropriate behaviour.

Original poster

mediterraneo · 15/03/2007 20:35

I am more of a T Byron school of parenting. I wouldn't discuss or negotiate with a small child shouting and being obnoxious to be honest. That would just increase the bad behaviour.
For me they are not punishments, but consequences.

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Donbean · 15/03/2007 20:39

Yep, ignore. Well...sometimes.
The shouting thing is really upsetting and annoying so i whisper to my ds..."why are you shouting, please stop". This has worked wonders, he whispers back to me "because im angry"! But at least he whispers!

The "stupid" and "shut up"and "dont care" is just plain horrid, but again i tell him that until he can speak to me nicely, i shant be speaking to him at all.

I think that these have all come from play school/pre school. ANOTHER phase im afraid!

CountTo10 · 15/03/2007 21:34

Ahhh see in that instance it would be a do not speak to me like that and if it continued it would be naughty step or to the room. I was raised never to speak to your parents like that and its not something i will be tolerating. You have to lead by example along Franny's lines but there is a line I feel and parents have to make it clear who has the control and it has to be the parent. I don't mean that to come across all disciplinarian but at the end of the day it is our job to raise people who are well mannered and respectable and they are not going to become that being able to act how they please.

FrannyandZooey · 15/03/2007 21:45

I don't let my son act as he pleases. However I am not going to send him to his room for expressing himself in a way that I don't like.

Well not normally, anyway, not unless I have had a shitty day and am feeling evil

CountTo10 · 15/03/2007 22:16

I know that F&Z - sorry didn't mean that to come across as directed at you more conjecture. I don't believe in constant punishment either but some expressions are not appropriate and they must learn other ways of expressing it, warning systems etc. If they are deliberatly continuing the behaviour even though they have been asked/warned not to then what else do you do other than an appropriate 'punishment'? I don't think that's unreasonable. My son is only 2.5 but he has deliberatley smacked me in the face recently when I have not allowed him a biscuit. Now whilst I agree he's in his right to express being angry at my decision, he knows that smacking is wrong so he's deliberatley done something he knows is wrong so that's an automatic naughty corner. We then talk about why he's there and what he should do in future when he feels like that. To me that is more than fair. He's been 'punished' for bad behaviour but he's also learning other ways of dealing with that emotion.

Original poster

mediterraneo · 15/03/2007 22:24

If the punishments are constant, it means they are not working.

They need to understand that there are boundaries and who is in control, bit scary and stressfull for them otherwise.

Interesting to hear other people's thoughts.

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shimmy21 · 15/03/2007 22:32

I disagree with the ignoring camp. I feel that I should make it clear that I don't feel that it's acceptable to be spoken to like that (and I don't speak like that to them either.) I am a person who deserves equal respect as everyone else and I want my boys to know what's socially ok and what's bloody rude.

my dses are 8 and 10 now so well old enough to understand. if they say shut up to me they automatically lose 10p from their pocket money - they never really say it these days.

When younger I just said clearly and firmly (not shouting though) 'don't speak to me like that. I don't like it.'

Each to their own of course but I couldn't ignore my kids behaving so rudely without at least showing that it's not an acceptable way of carrying on.

FrannyandZooey · 16/03/2007 08:24

Oops sorry Countto10, must have been feeling a bit defensive there

Ah, you see, I agree that a 2.5 year old rationally knows it is wrong to hit you. He may even be able to control himself most of the time and find other ways to show he is cross. But on the occasion you describe, your ds was not able to control his temper and find an acceptable alternative to express his anger. So he has been punished, really, for being too small to behave perfectly. It's the "deliberately" bit that I disagree with, in your post.

I would have got cross and told him off too, probably. But I am not sure if it is the right thing to do.

Shimmy I would only ignore if I felt it was so ridiculous as to be laughable (ie said not in genuine anger but to cause a bit of a stir, as my ds sometimes does), or if I was in a real mood and didn't trust myself to deal with it calmly. Otherwise I would also point out that it wasn't acceptable.

Original poster

mediterraneo · 16/03/2007 09:49

I think a 2.5 child who hits needs to be given a bit of time out, otherwise he she/he will not know what it is right and what it is wrong. He is not being punished for being too small to behave perfectly, we are not after perfection here, we are punishing him to show him that his behaviour will give him zero attention. What children want is attention anyway. Of course it is paramount to show them that we love them even when they misbehave.
F&Z: How would you deal with a hitting child?

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FrannyandZooey · 16/03/2007 13:03

I say "don't hit".

FrannyandZooey · 16/03/2007 13:05

"it is paramount to show them that we love them even when they misbehave."

I agree, but this is the problem with time out and other punishments - you are showing the child that you don't love them when they misbehave.

Original poster

mediterraneo · 16/03/2007 13:35

No, I am showing the child that I don' t like the behaviour -I explain clearly why he has been put in time out.
Saying "don't hit" or "don't shout" or whatever for me is not sufficient. the child just carries on knowing taht he/she can get away with it.

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juuule · 16/03/2007 13:47

I agree with F&Z. A 2.5yo needs things explaining to them and examples setting. Time-out for a 2.5yo can be very distressing. You are punishing them by withdrawing your favour. They don't carry on doing it if you explain because they want to please you. If they are misbehaving to get attention then you need to look at whether they are getting enough attention when they are behaving well.

FrannyandZooey · 16/03/2007 18:09

But until you can send "the behaviour" to its room, rather than your child, this is going to be experienced as punitive and disapproving of your child.

I think expecting any child to behave well all the time is unrealistic and in fact unreasonable. Isn't it terribly wearing to be doing all this Time Out all the time? Do you employ similar methods with other people who displease you?

sunnysideup · 16/03/2007 18:30

i definitely agree with franny, it doesn't have to be so 'formal' all the time....I think people feel a responsibility to deal with behaviour, but it doesn't always have to be with formal 'discipline'; ignoring is going to send a strong message. so is saying "I don't like being talked to like that. I don't talk to you like that" or "I don't stay here to be talked to like that" and just removing yourself from the room, or similar...they all work in my mind, just as well as the time out option.

I HAVE used time out, when at the end of my tether with ds, only about 5 times in his whole life - he's five soon. I used it as genuine time out, so we could both calm down, when ds had been utterly undistractible...not as an every day thing at all, as a last resort totally.

I think the other methods, telling the child what is and isn't acceptable, ignoring, removing yourself if necessary, are enough to be honest. I feel that using timeout / naughty step many times daily is just not necessary. Sometimes people put too much pressure on themselves to DEAL with behaviour, when as franny says, children HAVE to go through this behaviour, as part of learning and growing. i just think people should trust kids more; they don't need this stuff 'trained' out of them, they will learn and do better by being shown the way to behave and by being told the way to behave. I personally feel they'll learn just as quick that way, as they would from being in time out every day...quicker!

FrannyandZooey · 16/03/2007 18:38

"i just think people should trust kids more; they don't need this stuff 'trained' out of them, they will learn and do better by being shown the way to behave and by being told the way to behave. I personally feel they'll learn just as quick that way, as they would from being in time out every day...quicker!"

I agree and think how much more pleasant it is, dealing with your child as a human being who you have confidence in turning out to be a nice adult, rather than all this training and punishing?

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