ignoring or telling off for saying "don't care", "shut up", "i hate you" and loud shouting

[mediterraneo]

My ds' little friend (both 3 1/2) always tells his mum this when he doesn't get his way, I think he may have picked up a lot of these expressions from his older brother. Anyway my friend smiles and says nothing. I expect soon my ds will be using these expressions with me, I don't think I will ignore it, but probably find a suitable consequence for his rudeness. What do you do? When ds shouts a lot at me I tell him that if he doesn't stop he will get a sad face on his sticker chart. I hate to be treated like dirt, but I wonder what to do when he starts to use "bad expressions".

Without wanting to sound like I am totally inconsistent, because I AM CONSISTENT in disapproving of bad behaviour, I think that with a toddler it is possible to employ both methods to deal with bad behaviour. Sometimes a time out is WAY too severe but if a child is told to stop something and persists beyond a couple of warnings then I think it is completely appropriate to take action. After all, I love my child unconditionally, but it is MY job to teach him the difference between good and bad behaviour.

My approach is very much Franny's. The ideal is simply to let dd know that it is not nice for her to say "I hate you". If she repeats it, then say "that's such a shame because I love you." If I have an inkling why she is angry, I will phrase it for her as in "you say you hate me because you are angry I am not letting you watch the DVD." I say ideal because if in a bad mood, I can get shouty .

Dd might or might not stop. If she has the last word, so be it. I have said all that needs to be said.

I just think that if I started imposing punishments like naughty step or taking away toys/privileges, dd (being stubborn) is likely to dig in her heels even more ie she ends up resenting the punishment rather than listening to me. And saying "I hate you" with even more vehemence.

Once she has cooled down, dd would have absorbed a little bit more the lesson about what is appropriate. One day, she will internalise the message and then CHOOSE to behave of her own volition, after all, there was never any external pressure in the form of threats or bribes to begin with ...

My two year old is worse than the others ever were. He's a fourth child. It means he spends more time with more siblings than they ever did so words like 'shut up' and 'you're horrible' trip more easily off his tongue.

I get down to his level and tell him, 'No', but he doesn't really know how rude he's being as he doesn't have a full understanding of the words he's using. He's just saying what he thinks is the worst possible thing to test out what I'll do.

I think ignoring is over-rated, expecially when they're angry. It's horrible to be ignored when you're angry and emotional. I'm not saying we should pander, but I think there's a lot to be said for letting them know you understand they're angry, but then not allowing them to disrupt you or others.

To be honest I use time out once a month, even less these days, last time was after New Year, for hitting a child who came round. I don't really need to. He knows when he oversteps the mark. For other horrid behaviour (shouting), he gets one warning, and that is now enough to make him stop. So no time out. If people are doing time out 10 times a day, then they are not doing it properly. YOu ahve to be clear, give warnings and play and spend time with the child. Enjoy him and show him the love.
I don't expect my ds to behave perfectly, that's stupid, but I want him to understand what's right and wrong, what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. Hitting is nasty, throwing mashed potato on the floor can be ignored, jumping on the bench screaming loudly can be ignored . You choose what matters to you and your family.
I would get very tired of constantly saying to him "don't do this" & "don't do taht" and seeing that the behaviour carries on. I think it would stress him to see that as a parent i cannot take control of the situation. I don't do this time out thing for my benefit, I want him to learn to express anger, hatred, frustration in a non violent way, I don't like putting up with this and I love him, imagine why should other parents and his teachers who don't love him unconditionally put up with it.
{hope i am making sense, English is not my mother tongue}.

I am in complete agreement mediterraneo. My ds knows that I love - that is why he feels comfortable testing boundaries with me in the first place. He also know that there are limits to those boundaries and that actions have consequences.

"that I love him" ykwim

And English is my mother tongue...

We don't use time out constantly otherwise it would be pointless. It's reserved for certain occasions usually when warnings etc haven't worked. Its something he doesn't like so its something he tries to avoid. He always has the opportunity to correct his own behaviour - i think that's important as it gives him the feeling of control. When he has been put in the naughty corner, I ask him if he knows why he was put there and we talk about why and that behaviour is not acceptable etc. There are times though when he is not always going to be able to understand an explanation but a physical/visual action will speak volumes to him. Punishment is not about not loving a child for that couple of mths its a physical way of saying something is not right just as the same as a sad face on a chart or deduction from pocket money - these are all punishments just different forms. We always have a cuddle etc and I always say to him I love you just not that behaviour so I do try and make a clear distinction. Also, though he's only 2.5 I feel its important to have the tools in place from an early age rather than just waiting till he goes to school and then trying to instill discpline, manners etc. I think we all handle things in ways that suit us and as long as what we are doing is not damaging to them physically/mentally then we are doing our best!

"Isn't it terribly wearing to be doing all this Time Out all the time? Do you employ similar methods with other people who displease you?"

Listen, if any of my friends behaved in a nasty way, were aggressive, snatched things off my hands, shouted, hit me and behaved like little bullies the way most children do at some point, well you know what, I would tell them to their face that their behaviour is crap and that unless they changed I would not spend any time with them. And you would do the same, I hope.

Its not about being displeased either its about making a child aware not only that a certain behaviour is wrong but the consequences. If when he does something very wrong and expression or not, hitting someone in the face is wrong, if he thinks that all that will happen is I'll sit and talk to him, then that's no big deal for him and there's nothing to deter him from doing that again (while he's still grappling with the understanding why it's wrong bit). If, however, he has to sit in a corner with no toys for 1 minute and then have a talk, that is something he will want to avoid and then hopefully it will help develop his mechanism to stop and think before he does something and about making the right choices.
If a friend behaved in an unacceptable way then i would tell them but I would be dealing with them as an adult who already has most of these functions. Dealing with a toddler is totally different, not only are you discplining but you are teaching and equipping. Or that's what I'm trying to do anyway!!

If you tell them it's wrong then they do understand. They may forget and need to be reminded but they do understand. They don't want to upset you. Even 18mo respond if they think they have upset you and try to make it right.