I don't know what to do any more. 7yo weed on my pillow

[purpleangel17]

Tonight my 7yo daughter started off by kicking her 9yo sister. I told her to stop, she did it more. I blocked her and she treated it like a game, running round me to kick her again and hit her on the arm, hard. I told my 9yo to go upstairs and I closed the living room door and sat in front of it so my 7yo couldn't go up. She started hitting and kicking and biting me. I gave her a warning then a consequence. She didn't care. Eventually she hit me so hard I cried out and then she started crying and calmed down. She watched some TV then at bedtime she decided to empty a cup of water all over the bathroom floor. I told her that was naughty and no bedtime cuddles now. I went downstairs because I needed some space from her. She then decided to wee all over my pillow and bed on purpose. Initially she thought it was funny and said I deserved it because I was mean and that I should kill myself. Eventually when I got upset I think she was ashamed as she hid her head and wouldn't look at me. She is now in bed asleep and I just feel completely useless as a mum. I don't know how to control her. I don't know why my daughter thinks it's ok to wee on my bed. I don't want social services involved but I just feel like no one can help. I want to go to sleep and never wake up.

*inexperienced!

Thanks for the messages, am feeling a bit calmer today and she woke up feeling contrite and has been trying to make it up to me.

I'll try to address some of the questions but apologies if I miss any.

The reason for sending her sister upstairs was to stop her being hit. While she was in the room, my youngest's focus was entirely on hitting her. So she wasn't 'sent to her room' as a punishment but asked to keep out of her sister's way till she was calm. She likes spending time in her room and was happy reading and drawing up there.

I can see how it might have been better to 'send' the youngest to her room but (a) she simply wouldn't have gone and she is too big for me to carry her and (b) I try to avoid sending them to their room as I don't want them to see their room as a bad place.

I will try to find more immediate consequences in the future and I've told both girls we're going to sit down tonight when everyone's calm and talk about rights and responsibilities and privileges and set some very clear rules. We did have 'house rules' when they were younger but they have kind of slipped, I think we need them back. I washed my sheets myself immediately but I've told her she is hanging them out to dry tonight and remaking my bed and she accepted that. As I said, she is quite contrite this morning and I can tell she's ashamed, which I guess is a good sign....

I can see in hindsight that it was the removing cuddles that really set her off on the worst of it (ie the weeing) but when you've been being hit solidly for 45 minutes, sometimes you can't see it in the moment. To be honest, I was feeling quite proud of myself that I hadn't screamed at her or pushed her roughly away, both things I've done before in the heat of the moment and then regretted (only when she's been hitting me, I've never 'started' it and I've never ever hit her).

The GP did an autism checklist and said she was confident she wouldn't meet diagnostic criteria. I tend to think she has some traits but not all of them and I am not sure a diagnosis would help or if she would get one.

I'm surprised that parents think a 7 year old is too big to grab firmly and take to their room. I would have moved the seven year old, put them in their room and shut the door on them. There would be no return downstairs that evening. There would be an expectation that they made beds at the weekend or similar as restitution.
I'd be having a conversation and setting explicit rules with known sanctions too. Then impose sanctions at point behaviour starts deteriorating rather than when it's escalated. Sitting in a room watching her is giving her the negative attention. Do you have a rear garden? Throw her out there for her paddy and tell her she can come in when she's ready to apologise.

I'm not a source of wisdom here as my 7yo is also very challenging and I haven't found the magic formula yet but for what it's worth

• I don't think refusal of cuddles should be a consequence for bad behaviour. Your love and affection and expressions thereof should be unconditional

• agree with pp that TV off should have been for the rest of the evening not just until she stopped misbehaving.

• other consequences can include removal of favourite toys/books/activities for specified times

I agree with Crumbs1
You really need to be firm. Never accept violence or disrespect. Address those immediately ie put in her room. . Do not give her the attention. When alls calm tell her briefly that you do not have violence or disrespect and if she has a problem to come to you as you are there to help her.
Reward chart for days she's been lovely?

I think a return of house rules and sitting down with the kids tonight are good ideas. Please don't kick yourself about anything you feel you didn't do correctly because you're dealing with a really challenging situation. It may be the case that she definitely doesn't have any diagnosable behavioural issues, you might just have a tough cookie. In this case, I'd say it's vital that you're stern with your consequences and that they fit the crime, so to speak. You're not hitting her, sending her to bed hungry or anything terrible like that. Simply, you're teaching her that you're the grown up in the home and you and the home are there to be respected and anything less won't be tolerated.

Hi OP
No words of wisdom here, I just wanted to give you a huge hug. And say well done for not screaming at her or pushing her roughly away which would have been an understandable knee-jerk response. It's just so bloody exhausting, you have my deepest sympathy.

OP you're getting lots of parenting advice here, but it sounds a bit like your DD might have one or two additional needs.

I'm in touch with an Occupational Therapist as I suspect DS1 has some sensory issues. Google Sensory Processing Disorder and see if some of the symptoms ring any bells. I also found The Out-Of-Sync child to be a good read.

"I don't think refusal of cuddles should be a consequence for bad behaviour. Your love and affection and expressions thereof should be unconditional"

Hmm....I think this should be contextual, actually. I think it does children good to link behaviour with consequences, and the natural consequence of hitting your mother for several minutes is that they don't feel like giving you cuddles! So I think it is a good thing to say "Sorry, DD, you've been hitting me and it really hurt me, so I'm not feeling very cuddly right now. I will give you a cuddle in a minute when I'm feeling a bit better." Then absolutely, 5 or 10 or even 15 minutes later, when you've had a breather and calmed down, give a cuddle, but I don't think that just after your child has walloped you or kicked you repeatedly and you're feeling hurt, should you have to totally ignore your own emotions and dish out a cuddle in the spirit of unconditional love (because we are humans and we're incapable of it no matter how much we try to kid ourselves that we possess it).

I agree about the consequences, that it probably should have been no TV full stop. I understand why you moved the 9 year old - path of least resistance, but it was probably a 'go' sign to your 7 year old that she had you on the ropes- it told her thar you knew you couldn't do anything with her. The peeing on your bed is waaay over the hill, though.

Have you tried talking to her and getting her to tell you how you feel? I do this with my children sometimes and it's quite effective. So day something like "DD, when you went upstairs last night, why did you wee on my bed?" "How do you think it made Mummy feel to go into my room and find wee on my pillow?" "How do you think it felt for Mummy to have to take the covers off to wash them?" I find that my children really haven't thought until I do that. Then they really are sorry.

Have you talked to her (when she's calm) about other ways to express her anger - hitting a pillow, tearing up paper (scrap paper!), bouncing on a trampoline (if you have one). It can help to have a fixed 'thing I do when I want to hit mum', I think.

By removing cuddles you're probably giving the impression you stop loving her when she's naughty, which is making her seek attention through more bad behaviour. Instead love her still but tell her that her behaviour is unacceptable.

I agree with those who have said removing cuddles is not an appropriate consequence.

When you're thinking of consequences, think of natural consequences first then logical consequences.

For example:

(a) if you throw your toys around in anger, they will break. The consequence is that you will not have anything to play with. (Natural consequence - this is something that will happen as a result of their behaviour.)

(b) hitting people is not acceptable. If you cannot behave in an acceptable way in the living room, you will have to sit alone in your bedroom. (Logical consequence - this is something that you enforce as a solution to the problem when there's not a suitable natural consequence. A natural consequence in this case might be that her sister doesn't want to play with her so she has to play alone, but you might decide this is not a suitable consequence and therefore enforce a logical consequence.)

Good luck, I hope you start seeing improvements soon

I see you mentioned the ASD, I was thinking that!! Girls mask so well...and with diagnostic criteria geared towards boys, they fly under the radar! Second opinion frrmo someone who knows what to look for in girls is in order

Also, do not wth hold affection! Think of another punishment, and keep the love and affection coming.

I really feel for you OP. Seven can be a really hard age, and it's TOUGH being a lone parent when they have behavioural problems.
All very well for people to say " Do not accept such and such, pick her up and make her"..
Well, when my 6/7 year old was acting similarly I wouldn't have tried to forcibly move him either. I could never even get him to stay on the naughty step when he was younger; once in a rage, the best thing to do was as little as possible, so I would remove myself until the worst had passed. Getting into physical confrontation (because that's what it would be-she wouldn't just go quietly in that state) is a mistake, especially when there is no Dad figure to lend a hand and back you up.
Ok, here is what worked/works for me-Positive reinforcement.
So, yes, you need consequences and boundaries for negative behaviour, of course you do, but implement them quickly and calmly and then move on.
Don't have a lot of big discussions about your feelings, or try to make her feel guilty. Kids take things to heart, even when you don't think they are, and guilt leads to self loathing, which leads to lashing out.
Instead, focus relentlessly on the positive aspects of her behaviour.
This is much harder than you might think, especially if, like me, you were raised very negatively.
Find times when she is doing what you want her to, and note it, out loud. So, for example, when she is playing nicely with her sister, tell her "You are playing really nicely today. You should be really proud of yourself". And keep doing it, every day.
Sometimes when children are challenging it is so easy to get in a downward spiral, and you forget to comment on all the things they do right. The more you notice and comment on all the wonderful things she is and does, the better the behaviour will get.
Now, this is not a wishy washy strategy-I promise, I am as hard nosed and un-woo and they get. In fact ds is forever telling me I am the strictest mum in the world
But it gets results, I think, by building up the child's self worth, and allowing them to be seen as a goody not a baddy.
You said her sister is good as gold? That's probably part of the problem. You need to treat them as though they are both as good as gold.
Chin up and good luck.

I should say; I suspect my ds is also on the spectrum, and this strategy still works-as long as you keep it up!
I posted years ago when I was at the end of my tether, and a wise MNetter gave me the very same advice.

The other thing I'm wondering is what time this all was - was it before or after dinner? I ask because my youngest gets 'hangry'. She gets really, really grumpy when she's hungry. To the point that when she was in a good mood one day I sat her down and had a talk with her and we made a deal that if I noticed her getting grumpy I could make her eat and make her drink, and no matter how grumpy or angry she was, she had to just do it. Even now (she's 8) when she's throwing a complete wobbler, I can get some orange juice or a biscuit or something similar and I just say 'drink!' or 'eat!' and she does, and within a few minutes she starts to become more reasonable, then calm down.

but when you've been being hit solidly for 45 minutes
And so even with this, are we seriously not supposed to ever hit them back? I do not get it.
Sorry for your troubles OP.

Wow that sounds really tough and scary tbh. As others have said though it does sound asif you may need to step up on your authority and punishment. If my child had of done that I wouldn't have sent the other child out, it would be the naughty child and upto bed. As for the dirty protests, I'd have made sure she removed and put it in the wash and grounded her. Tbh she would not have been allowed to the friends house after school today either.

The playdate was yesterday not today.

I actually had a really useful meeting today with an occupational therapist at my daughter's school. Her class teacher and the SENCo were there too (as I've raised concerns before about whether she is on the ASD spectrum).

The OT thinks she is on the spectrum and also has sensory needs. She is holding it all together in school (and at her playdate) and then it all comes out when she gets home. So I'm being given some strategies to use and so are school and hopefully with a combination of that and some very clear rules and consequences at home, we can get through this. I don't feel like quite such a terrible mum now...

She is a bright girl and I really hope we can manage the sensory needs and organisational needs - she is actually much better socially than she was and she does now have friends, which is huge...

Thanks for all the help.

Oh and as for hitting you all, she needs firm consequences. In real life as a teen or an adult she would face police or social services. I would firmly explain that unless she stops it you will be seeking support from both. Sort of put the frighteners on her a bit.

I hope I haven't come across as judgey, I'm not in your situation op so it's easy for me to see it differently. I know how hard it can be to make my kids take notice and gain control at times so I can appreciate it's not easily done with such extreme aggression. But it needs nipping in the bud now before she's a teen imo.

Sounds like it's going in the right direction. What a good mum you are.
Good luck

Glad the meeting went well. I was going to post to say it sounds like she is holding everything together and then losing it when at home.

The hitting can be her craving the right sensory input too. If you can find an OT with sensory intergration they can assess her and give you and the school a 'sensory diet' to follow. This can help regulate her system and you will probably see a massive improvement in her behaviour. If you read up about SPD you will probably get some ideas in the meantime.

Get the ball rolling now for an official assessment. It can take a while. Anxiety is common with children on the spectrum and with sensory issues (my daughter is ASD and have severe sensory issues, she is almost 9) and so self harm can become a way to get sensory input. My daughter already hits and bites herself, so an assessment was vital for her to make sure we got her all the help she needed. It is very possible that she will go from hitting herself with her hands, to using something to hurt herself to get a bigger sensory input. She has done so once or twice, but thankfully it isn't the norm and I don't want it to become so.

As she reaches puberty, the hormones with increase the emotions, likely making the anxiety worse.

I am not saying this to scare you, just to make you see that just because her current teacher is on board, it won't follow that the other will be, because some still believe that ASD doesn't present in girls. This is why you need something official for the future.

And I have seen OT work wonders with a child I know with ASD who was violent. She rarely is now. The right pathway can work wonders.

Funnyonion17 It's not actually so easy if this little girl is indeed on the spectrum. To threaten her with the police or social services will cause her untold angst and she will not understand it in a way that an NT child would.

Op. she will not understand it at all, and you are likely to terrify her and that would be counter productive. If I told my daughter this, it would become a real fear and cause her more stress and upset. This in turn would make her behaviour decline!