Obnoxious 3 year old. Advice needed

[Cadbury]

I'm at the end of my tether with dd. All traditional positive parenting strategies have flown out of window. Dd is defiant in everything asked of her. I'm afraid I won't cope when dh leaves for business abroad for a week tomorrow. Anyone got any ideas for a depressed mum in need of some strength and control?

Lots of sympathy. My own three year old is currently refusing to go to bed.

Huge sympathy. Dd is also 3, has an answer for everything and defiant/obnoxious are the politest of the words I can find. This was not what I had in mind for motherhood. Where's the smiling cherub who was so adorable at 2?

Is she like this all the time? With anyone else but you? Anything particular set her off?

rea the article int he times today!

I was about to start a thread on this dd has just gone mad lately she throws tanturms crys at everything, does not listen to anything i say she plays me off with her dad and grandma (she lives with me thats another thread) They just let her get away with murder. I am trying very hard the ignoring thing and it works but only when it is just me and dd if dh and mil are there she just goes loopy and they give in. i am beginning to become a little heavy handed too(please don't judge me) i am a good mum i feel i am anyway. but i find myself dragging her to the step or to bed. dh is putting her to bed now but she has just finished screaming i do not allow dvds films in the week so what does he do put his projector up and watch his shit knowing full well she is going to create. Then gets shitty with me coz i said 7.30pm bed and she kicks of and he has had to stop the vid and see to her WHEN HE SHPOULD HAVE LET HERrun her steam...................arhhhhhhhhhhh am i allowed to swear oops sorry. very angry and hurt slink coz i feel they then look at me as a bad mum she has been to nursery and is tired i am stopping now xxxx

Cadbury - been there with dd - she was a horrible threenager! Used counting "I am going to count to 5 and if you haven't..." also star charts worked and putting her in her room as punishment. Otherwise just grit your teeth - it will not last forever - dd is a pretty good 4yo now. Good luck

Many thanks for letting me know I'm not alone. Had better day (1st day of dh's business trip) but dreading one of her too tired to stop screaming days. Dh is supportive most of the time when here but is generally softer than me and not always here. Feel like strict teacher permenantly shouting.
Slink, I really feel for you. Wanted to give you a glass or 3 of wine, big bar of chocolate and a hug after reading your post. Really shitty day all round then. As hard as it is, I guess it's our role as the primary carer to be the bad guy and make and reinforce the rules when all else is going to pot. Horrid job though. I'm pretty sure none of this was in the job description when I got up te duff. Got to go to bed now. Almost certain that this will be the week when neither dd or ds sleep through the night. It always happens. Night night.

I know exactly what you mean! DD is 3.5, and she is in a phase of trying my patience in a major way. I don't know if her behaviour is in reaction to my style of parenting, natural testing of the boundaries, or just who she is. She is definitely asserting her independence from me. She resists every request, and wants to do everything herself - even the things she doesn't have the dexterity to do. For example, she threw a complete wobbly the other day because she wanted to paint her toenails herself. She wouldn't listen to any of my reasons why it was best for me to do it - she was determined. And, of course, we ended up with a mess. It's ludicrous to think I'm fighting with a 3 year old over nail varnish, but.....there you have it!

Everything is a battle, everything is "why, why, why" and no answer is good enough. She really wears me down. I am finding that the best solution is to show her my frustration with how obstinate she is, rather than appearing to have endless patience. When I let her know that I was irritated tonight, she trotted over, hugged my knees and said "mum, you're my best friend" - which was lovely, but laughably transparent. I would much rather have heard it in a loving moment, rather than at a time when I'd had enough and was letting her know it.

It is a difficult time, but I suppose it helps to know that others are experiencing it too.....so, it's not just me! Oh yes, she also has severely reduced the number of cuddles/kisses she shares.

How was everyone's weekend? Cadbury, how are you coping?

It was a patience testing weekend at our house. DD is so opinionated, demanding, contrary and stubborn at the moment. Her answer to every request is "no, I don't want to". Doesn't want to brush her hair, doesn't want to get dressed, doesn't want to eat, doesn't want to take her nap, etc., etc., etc. She kicked me a few times yesterday (not hard), and had to be put in her room for quiet time. I planned a picnic yesterday for some fun and special time together, but she whinged most of the time......wanted to go to the playground instead of playing with her ball, but when we got to the playground didn't want to stay. Didn't want to eat lunch, demanded an ice cream every minute for about an hour (despite being told repeatedly that we'd have one if she ate her lunch). Basically, not a fun time - more like an endurance contest as I sat on the blanket grimly chewing my sandwich listening to her moan.

Every morning starts with a tantrum. She is waking before 6am, and when I tell her it's too early to get up and that she needs to stay in bed, she falls apart. All I want is to enjoy each other's company, which sadly is not happening frequently enough right now. It's such a battle of the wills. I'm being consistent, and not giving in, but I long for some close and harmonious time with my lovely, sweet, clever dd......who sadly is not much in evidence these days. I don't like feeling estranged from her, and at odds with her. . She's out with her nanny currently, so I have a bit of peace, but feel exhausted. Amazing how my body actually feels sore after a few hard days with her - must be a physical manifestation of all the tension. Someone please tell me it will get better!

I feel really amazed that nobody tells you about three year olds!

A friend of mine told me she got to the point of thinking 'well, she's just not very nice, and she'll grow up and leave home and I'll just focus on that'. She did cheer up later.

Fortunately Friday's wobbly was at the house of another three-year-old, whose mum assures me can beat mine at tantrums. But the solid wall of screams was really very hard to take.

And she is also so lovely, and clever, and sweet to be with and entertaining . It's like living with an alcoholic, you never know whether Ms Charm or Ms Horrible is going to emerge.

Cadbury, how's it going?

DS is gearing himself up, 2 weeks before his 3rd birthday. All the old techniques are just 'speedbumps' to him, he charges straight through them.

He has suddelnly become terribly conscious of not doing anyhting a baby might do and this drives a lot of his enthusiasm for throwing his weight around. Does your daughter need a change of gear in the way you deal with her? Talk to her as if she IS older?
But I'm at a loss, really!

Hi Y'all, We have had a not too bad couple of days. She is getting very tired and that is a sure way of sending her off in a tizzy fit. We had a dreadful night last night and she didn't get back to sleep for 3 hours or so, and therefore neither did I. I knew that if I sent her to pre-school with that little amount of sleep, I'd be pulled to one side on collecting her about her behaviour, so I decided to keep her at home. She had a good long sleep durig the day but that means she has only just gone to sleep now.
Earlybird, your tale sounds very familiar. Especially the early morning grumps which set us up for a day of grumping. I'm trying, when I see her launch into one of her tantrums and hitting attacks, to stop my telling off spree and give her a cuddle because that seems to be what she really needs when she gets so angry about everything. I too feel exhausted with the sheer effort of not taking up the fight she is always picking. I have to keep asking myself if this is a battle that is really worth having. The trouble is that the more run down I get, the more I just want to win a battle (any battle, I'm not fussy) just to prove to dd and myself that I am still in charge. Think I have to go to bed now. Can't even face another glass on wine at the moment. And there is chocolate in the fridge that I just don't have the energy for. What happened to the old Cadbury?

Cadbury - glad things are going OK. DD woke with a tantrum yesterday, and went to bed last night with a spectacular tantrum. She should be waking any minute now, and I'm hoping/praying for a better day.

I know you have to pick your battles, but I wonder if part of the problem is I'm being too soft and too patient. Perhaps she's looking for boundaries, and my patience in dealing with her allows the situation to escalate. Problem is that I always feel I'm being mean when I put her in her room for time out, or tell her she can't have ice cream treat because she's been too naughty. But, maybe I'm truly being mean in a larger sense when I am not strict enough and allow situations to get out of hand by not nipping them in the bud earlier with firm action.

I think my patience is interpreted by her as softness/indecisiveness, and so she continues to push until we both hit boiling point. Maybe she needs to understand that when she misbehaves there are consequences that are immediate, predictable and firm......rather than a marshmellow mum who thinks she's being patient with a demanding child.

I want to revive this thread after yesterday! We went to a birthday party - a little one, of one of dd1's best mates - and she threw a strop, refused to eat anything except cake and then wept and wept. I think I'm not setting boundaries properly either. We don't really do time out or the stairs - and I know that's because I'm scared of provoking another screaming attack of tears. Which is so truly pathetic I'm embarrassed to admit to it.

Things are also stressful again here. We seem to have good days or parts of days but the rest of the time I'm being treatyed like dirt by dd.
Motherinferior, it just sounds like she is meeting a boundary and pushing it to see how far she can go before you break and give in. If she is having the tizzyfits then it is because you won't give in to her - and good for you. Every other person in the room will understand and probably have had the same happen to them. I think the reason I get so much abuse from my dd is that I won't give in to her when she is provoking a fight. I just hope that she gets used to me being the boss before I run out of strength to do it. DH home tonight so I hope it will help th situation. Many thanks for carrying me through this horrid week mums. What did I do before I was addicted to mumsnet?

You overestimate my strength, Cadbury. I just cave in, pathetically

How on earth did I miss this one Cadbury!! You know anyway that I'm thinking about you and hope at least that yesterday brought a little respite!!! (and somewhere to offload a bit as well as on here) Glad dh is returning tonight and hope dd doesn't make your day too unbearable!{{{{{{{{o{}}}}}}}}}'s

motherinferior - when i read the post abouut your dd eating the cake and refusing everything else, i think it sounds like it was the fault of the parents that held the party. as a 3 year old it would be too tempting to have the cake in view and expect to eat the other stuff first. from going to a few parties with my ds1 (now 4)a lot of the kids get overwhelmed as the atmosphere can be a lot for them to cope with. they can find it hard to comprehend the presents are for someone else, the amount of people, noise etc. don't want to sound critical - just trying to look at it from the childs point of view.
cadbury - have been through this with my ds1 from 2-4 years and i'm sure ds2 will be following suit next year. what really helped me was my ds1's teacher. she told me the following:

1. from 18 months onwards children are trying to make sense of the world. 2.you are their world and they tend to hold a mirror up to our own behaviour. 3.we have to be their first teacher, so we have to model the behaviour we want them to copy and teach them to manage their emotions. so if for example i've broken a plate i have to pretend () to be very calm and say oh well maybe we can mend it.
2. the key is to prepare them for each day by telling them what will be happening that day. then to give them reminders 10/5 minutes before each request ie. 'after breakfast we need to get your shoes on'. or if having trouble going to bed - i've found saying 'its story time' rather than bedtime can help. if engrossed in playing etc. short explanation of how its time for toys back in the box so they will be ready to play with tomorrow.
3. the only time i get tantrums now is if my ds1 genuinely feels there has been an injustice ie. another kid has taken a toy from him without asking or we didn't prepare him for a request or he doesn't understand why he needs to do something or why something has happened.
4. tired/hungry?that goes for the parents too!
5. the crucial time to help them is when they are giving you the signs they may be going into tantrum, thats when you can help them through it. ie. 'i can see you really want to play with your doll and your getting upset that its time to stop - lets take doll upstairs and we can both read her a story. we've had a busy day and its time for your body to rest so we can do xyz tomorrow'. sing a song/story she associates with relaxing/give her a bath, massage 8.independence - its all about them wanting to copy you at this stage so it maybe she is pushing the boundaries as she wants to do/learn something that she sees you doing?
6. at this age i tended to do not more than 2-3 things a day with my ds1. if i tried to do too much i found both of us going into tantrum zone 10.another good book is 'raising your spirited child' it teaches you to change the language we use when we talk to children and their behaviour to reinforce the positive. it's an american book, amazon have it. hope it helps xx

I'd just like to say that an awful lot of this thread rings true for my Dd3 and myself,but she's 15 yrs old!(How to cope? I don't know,but we'll come right eventually).I think your Dd's will emerge,blinking, into the light and serenity of the 'Fabulous Fours'(),just hold on for a little longer!Best wishes to you all

mi, I don't think it's pathetic to cave in. If all else fails (I'm thinking of shrub's spot on list here) and the tantrum still there, then do whatever it takes to restore peace. I do think giving lots of reminders about what we're doing for the day is a useful tactic, but of course that won't prevent a 3 year old insisting party cake is the only food she wants.

I think different rules apply for party situations anyway. As long as my children haven't upset anyone else, broken anything or done something really dangerous, they can pretty much do as they like. If my son eats cake at a party, it's not the same as eating cake at home... that's my reasoning anyway.

My ds always only eats cake at birthday parties! We have lunch first at home so cake is pudding. Who wants mouldy old sandwiches anyway? We are going to a party tomorrow and ds is cheerfully fixated on the cake aspect already. OK, others will have the last laugh when ds is toothless and obese at 10, but until then I'll let him eat cake.

another thing i remember being told is to focus on what they can do rather than what they can't. for example if ds1 starts to raid the kitchen cupboards, i might say to him that i need that saucepan for cooking, but you can play with the whisk or we can make some cakes or do some pretend washing up by giving them their own bowl of water outside with lots of cups/jugs etc. (water is the best tantrum deflector in my experience) or give them a bath. there have been times my ds1 has had 3 baths in 1 day!

You're all brilliant. I shall put some of these into practice. And in fact, I had a chat to dd1 about it all and suddenly, completely out of the blue, she explained later that she'd been tired (which she had). We've made an agreement that if I feel shouty or she feels screamy, we'll have a chat about it and try to have a hug (hmmm)...and in fact she and I went off on our own to a party yesterday which was full of older kids, and she could quite easily have got overwhelmed and cried, but in fact finally plucked up the courage to go on a trampoline all on her own and had a fabby time. And I told her, many times, how proud I was of her.

glad you both had such a lovely day

Thanks for the practical suggestions shrub. Will try to implement some of them.

Friday night was horrendous, and it all began when dd was messing about and fell out of her chair. I rushed to her, but she pushed me away and ran crying hysterically into the other room. I followed her, but she kept shouting "go away mummy, I'm mad at you". I was concerned that she might be hurt, but also gobsmacked that falling had somehow morphed into being mad at me.

In hindsight, I should have simply left her to calm down, but I tried to talk to her to figure out where all this was coming from. Things escalated, and she ended up saying "you're a terrible mummy" and "I wish Robin (her beloved American nanny) was my mummy". We both were in tears. I still don't know what prompted her outburst, but suspect it has to do with the fact that we moved back to London from America at the end of May. Everything in her life has changed, and she has also had a new nanny for the past month. I thought she was handling the changes extremely well, but suppose she has deeper feelings that she's been unable to express.

The whole episode was deeply upsetting to both of us. We then went on to have an absolutely lovely Saturday and Sunday with lots of laughter, fun and cuddles. From one extreme to the other..........

oh no I am counting down the weeks til dd3 is 3 (7 weeks now) as I hoped they suddenly got better at 3 years old!
(dd1 is one of those irritatingly - for other parents, nice for us - good children who doesn't have tantrums)

On the party thing, we went to a party on sat with a whole coffee table with about 10 types of crisps on. it was the first time I let dd1 (age 4) and dd2 (age 2) gorge themselves silly on crisps and cake. They both got stomach aches and felt sick all evening which was great for ramming the message home why they can't always eat crisps.