biting

[Twinsmum]

I have twin boys aged 22 months who are absolutely lovely but who are both quite aggressive. They fight with each other a lot which I find very upsetting (lots of hair pulling, pushing, hitting etc). One of them has recently taken this one stage further and now seem to attack any child who gets in his way. This even includes biting. He takes absolutely no notice of anything we try to stop this. (Ignoring (very difficult), shouting, tapping his hand, time out etc etc etc.) They both go to nursery twice a week where they advocate time out. Any advice gratefully recieved. He's a wonderful little boy but he really is a handful.

Monkey

Although it does sound barbaric biting your son back would probably stop him, he would understand what it feels like. My mum did this to me when I was little because I used to bite my brother very viciously. However before she resorted to this, she did try other tactics and I would suggest trying other ways first.
I find it quite shocking that they are slapping the back of his hand, imo if you have a child who is hitting and you tell them off and then hit them how does that reinforce what you are trying to teach them?
We have had severe problems with our 6 year twin boy hitting, kicking and generally being hell to live with and we have tried all the strategies we could think off including smacking (which I wasn't overhappy with but we were at the end of our tether at the time) and it just made things worse.

Hopefully it is just a short phase, but if it continues I should reconsider whether to stay at the playgroup. Do they know why he is doing it?

Don't bite him back. Some people will tell you it has worked for them but I think that's got to be coincidence. He's far too young to put himself in another person's shoes, so he's not going to think, 'oh, I didn't like that, so I'd better not do it to other people'. It's far more likely that if you bite he'll copy you just as he copies everything else you do.

When dd went through a biting phase I used to make a cross face and say firmly 'no biting' if she did it or attampted it. That worked for us reasonably quickly - either that or she would have stopped anyway.

If you're generally happy with the nursery can you just ask them to omit the slap when dealing with your son?

Biting back does work - with puppies. Wouldn't recommend with kids.

Blimey, I have often been tempted to bite back, I have to admit but wouldn't actually do it...I agree with whoever said make it clear to your ds that hitting/biting is wrong with a firm No. Keep doing it without giving the bad behaviour too much attention. It is a phase, is not unusual and it will pass but it is trying isn't it? I would ask the playgroup to stop the slapping too if you are not happy with it. IMO (as someone else said) it's reinforcing the news that hitting is OK. Good luck.

I was a biter as a child and my mum bit me back! I believe she tried every other method she could think of to make me stop so biting me back was a last resort. She has told me since that she knew it had to be a firm, one-off hard bite. And it was! I remember! But I never bit again - it worked, I think that I never really understood how I was hurting people that I was biting (mainly my sister) until it was done to me.
The fact that I remember it though I think indicates I was about 3 or 4 years old, so an age when I could understand more.
Now my dd bites me. What goes around comes around, eh!

One of my DD's once had her hair pulled, very badly, in the back of the car, by another child while I was dropping off a third child after nursery...I came back to find my DD howling while the other child looked guilty but triumphant, IYKWIM.

After the inevitable inquest I gave the other child's hair a sharp yank. She looked hurt and shocked but said (this is a 3-yr-old!) "my mummy won't be pleased when I tell her you did that." I said "your mummy won't be pleased when I tell her why I did that."

There was no come-back that I was aware of and the car-pooling continued unaffected.

monkey, they need to know how it feels! I know (for all of you who said don't do it back) that it seems barbaric but, honestly, if they haven't felt how painful it is they will continue to do it. The hair-puller I quoted never did it again - or not anywhere near me anyway!

Janh, I have to say, I hope I have read your post wrong bacause I am in a hurry.
Did you really pull a child's hair??

And as for biting my son, who isn't even 2 years old yet - frankly I think it is medieaval & barbaric & am disgusted really at the serious suggesation that I should bring my son up like this.

My ds has not bitten another child, and until this incident, has onlt every bitten or tried to bite me, and even then this is few and far between times of frustration. I would be very upset if he bit anyone else, and would do whatever I could, BUT NOT BITE him.

If I found out yo'd pulled my child's hair, or bit - presumably you would retailiate like with like in this case, I wouldn't let it drop. What sort of message have you given this other child, or your own for that matter?

I'm sorry, but I am truly appalled.

my ds1 used to bite dh and me when he got over excited. i think he was about 2. i don't think he realised how much it hurt until he bit dh on the shoulder once and broke the skin. dh was so shocked he dropped him, i caught him and everyone burst into tears. it was a good lesson and things begain to get better.
i would never advise or agree to deliberate biting back. you have to teach by example, if i don't bite then nor should you.

good luck with resolving this.

I wouldn't recommend biting a child because you just don't know whether it would cure them or make them worse. Having said that, my neighbour's experience was interesting.

Her dd was a dreadful biter, absolutely antisocial, and she dreaded taking her anywhere. Then one day Charlotte came home from playgroup with a set of teethmarks on her face. She'd chosen the wrong child to bite, got her just desserts in return and never bit anyone again. The marks took a week to fade!

But that was a natural event, cause and effect, if you like, totally unengineered and I don't think premeditated biting works.

On the biting back front I have a child who had shown no interest in biting until she was bitten very badly (blood drawn, arm bruised horribly for over a week). Since then she has bitten and been bitten back etc at nursery and despite the fact she obviously knows it hurts will always respond in kind if bitten. That said we've been ok for the past month despite her being a victim more than once.

As for the playgroup, as far as I know it's illegal for a carer/teacher to physically punish a child in all EU countries.

thanks piasmum. I'm not in the Eu though. I actually don't kow whether it's legal or not here. I'm sure they're not 'beating' him or anything, just slapping the back of his hand, but I don't agree with this & don't think it's appropriate (don't want to reopen the hitting debate) and also feel we don't hit our kids, so don't think it's ok for someone else to.

Anyway, spent all weekend stressing about the 'talk' with the lady, looking up words in the dictionary, wanting to get message across without offending them etc etc.

Anyway, arrived & she's off sick!

So I nearly chickened out altogether, but I forced myself to discuss it with the other lady - had to do it in front of another parent & my nerves got to my language & I'm sure I was barely comprehensible, but she was, as ever, very sweet.

Went home feeling happier, and got a 'phone call about an hour later asking me to come & get him as he'd had a sudden & violent diarrhoea & vomiting spree. The room stank... More stress.

My ds went thruogh a biteing phase when he was about 2ish, I bought books and tried all the modern methods to stop him. My mum kept telling me to bite him back, but I refused.Eventually, another child at nursery bit him and he has not done it since.
On a lighter note,I have loads of those accident notes from nursery,my 4yo ds's have been there since they were 9 months. By far the funniest, is one that described, how ds had got his head trapped in the microwave part, of the play kitchen. It had taken 3 nursery nurses to free him.It must be genetic, I was the kind of child who managed to trap limbs in unusual places,usually out of boardom. Dh thinks we should have kept a scrap book of the notes.

What do you say to your best friend when her son constantly bites, scratches, and pinches your DS? Her DS and mine are nearly 20 months old, and her DS just follows my DS around and every chance he gets pinches, hits, and bites my DS. I spend the entire time trying to hold and protect my DS. I don't want her to bring her DS to our house, but don't know what to say. Any advice would be appreciated.

workinmum
Am in exactly same situation, DS and chum nearly three. In the end DS hd had enough and refused to go to other kid's house to play. Just said no. Good for him. I tried everythign short 'your kid's a psycho' with other mum and she has finally got the message. Sad because I really like her and we are close neighbours and boyth boys are starting nursery together next term, but at least my DS won't be getting coshed with a bob the builder toy round the side of the head agian.
So you could tell her that dd has voted with her feet and doesn't want to play.
Hope this helps

Thanks, suzywong, but my friend knows well that my DS is not communicating quite yet, so it would be a lie unfortunately. The big problem is that my friend wants to come around (with her DS of course), and it's so hard to say to her - your DS is not welcome to come around.

It really is a tough one isn't it? I have rehearsed many many conversations in my head about how to say it.
When my DS was your DS's age I just used to grit my teeth and never take my eyes off the offender.
Although I have definitely offended my friend by now, I am grateful that DS, can spend more time playing with his non violent (apart from the obligatory shove over who gets which toy) friends.

Wish I could be of more help.
You may have to bite the bullet and spell it out.

It really is a tough one isn't it? I have rehearsed many many conversations in my head about how to say it.
When my DS was your DS's age I just used to grit my teeth and never take my eyes off the offender.
Although I have definitely offended my friend by now, I am grateful that DS, can spend more time playing with his non violent (apart from the obligatory shove over who gets which toy) friends.

Wish I could be of more help.
You may have to bite the bullet and spell it out.

It is stressful. I find myself picking up DS and holding on to his feet and constantly running away from her DS. If I let my DS's feet dangle, and her DS approaches, her DS will bite my DS's feet. That's how bad it is. I hate trying to run away from him all the time, but need to protect my DS. My friend did ask what she should do. Apparently, doctors recommend time outs, but they have not been effective. Maybe I will just have to suggest that we keep our DSs apart if we do get together, but then what's the point of visiting.

that sounds dreadful and quite extreme, surely she can see the extent of the problem.
You are going to have to propose a trial separation period and only getting together when out in the park, so your ds has a chance to leg it. Of course that will curtail contact as who wants to go to the park in this weather.
You may also want to go out for drink with friend to show it is kid and not her, would be awful to lose friend.

As a matter of interest, how much one on one does terror child's father spend with him?

What a perceptive question you ask, suzywong! In fact, her DS husband abandoned them for quite a number of months while having marital problems. In general, he does not spend much time with his DS alone, but my friend attributes her DS behavior to her DH's rough play with him. It is really quite extreme, as she has indicated that her DS has bitten and caused injury to every child he has come into contact with - and also with various adults - herself included. He is very strong, despite the fact that he is only 20 months old. All of his bites, scratches and pinches have broken the skin and caused bleeding. I hate to say it, but he is like an animal! The strange thing is that he is also extremely intelligent-seeming. He is more verbal than my DS and just seems to comprehend a lot more.

Are we talking about the same child?
The one I know started talking, and I mean real sentences, at 10 months and his father was away at work a lot .... I think the more play with fathers certain boys get the better they are able to establish and learn physical limits. They know who the silverback/alpha male is and where they come in the pecking order.

I really don't want to offend any other mumsnetters who, for what ever reason, dob't get a lot of dad/son action but it would certainly seem that in our experiences a super intelligent child who doesn't muck about with his dad often can divert his energies in to unwanted bullying.

(God that fence-post feels sore on my bum)

In my amatuer but empirical way, I formed a theory that the part of the brain that is ahead in language developoment is doing so and the expense of the measured behaviour lobe, IYSWIM
It's all very well being able to say jet propulsion but you you not aqt the expense of biting feet

Fascinating observation, but in any case - I still will have to deal with his poor mum. No doubt she will take offense, but I do think I'm not the first one to have to make her isolate her DS. Hopefully, it is just a phase that will end soon. Thanks again!

Have been reading this thread and remember when my dd1 was younger and got bitten at nursery across the nose. I was told then that a human bite that broke the skin could be more dangerous that an animal as human mouth's contain far more harmful diseases than a dogs mouth.
Also, we used to say only crocodiles bite and only donkeys kick, which worked quite well for a toddler.

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