Run out of options - and he doesn't have ADHD!!

[Nattie]

This is long - sorry. The following is a brief history of DS's behaviour and I'm hoping somebody out there has some insight - it's the bulk of a letter I wrote to my GP:

"DS has had ?challenging behaviour? since he was about 18 months old.

A great many strategies have been tried to modify his behaviour. He has also undergone a number of assessments.

• We?ve attended sessions with a Brief Therapy Counsellor (www.brieftherapy.org.uk), having been referred by his previous primary school, in London.

• I have attended two sets of parenting classes.

• I have read every childhood behaviour book going.

• DS is on a course of Omega 3 supplements to see if that might work.

Since moving to Suffolk:

• The Safe Schools officer has visited Feoffment twice.

• He has been assessed as having an IQ in the top 8% in the country.

He has always had a lot of positive reinforcement and attention at home and I think part of the problem is that he demands even more, he is like a bottomless pit.

He eats well, most food at home is cooked from fresh ingredients; sweets and junk food are limited.

But at school he hits, kicks and screams at teachers when he doesn?t like something or can?t get his own way and he is constantly pinching or hitting or pushing (almost absent mindedly) the other children in his class. There are only a couple of children who will play with him or even sit with him because of this. He can?t line up and finds it nearly impossible to be quiet at ?carpet time? or in assemblies; he shouts out and is always muttering, he craves constant attention.

However, he is very bright, articulate and engaging and can strike up conversations with adults easily. In fact, he makes friends with children very quickly but these friendships don?t last very long because, after a couple of days, he starts trying to direct their play and, obviously, they don?t respond very positively and then it all goes pear-shaped!

Any strategies that have been employed, which can involve either a reward scheme or a punishment (usually denial) scheme, works for a short while until DS either tires of it or sees through it and then his behaviour slips right back again. Nobody can get him to empathise with the feelings that his victims have, even when we try exercises with him to try and relate to feelings that he might have had in similar situations. We can?t get him to take responsibility for his actions. He just says that he can?t help it. He is obviously very, very fed up with the constant tellings off."

The result of the visit to the Childhood Development Centre is that he didn't have ADHD (he showed 'sumptoms' of ADHD at school but not at home!!) but that the 'expert's' only solution was to medicate him! I've since encountered a lot of parents whose children just don't fit and have a lot of trouble at school. If any child's behaviour is put under as much scrutiny as mine has been then, surely, they too would be deemed to display odd behaviour.

State schools just can't cope with 'rebellious' non-conformist children - they're tied up with targets and funding. A recent statistic states that 1 in 20 children have been diagnosed with ADHD. I just don't believe that's so. If we'd said 'yes' ds would have been medicated too and become a statistic.

I want some support for children who are being bludgeoned in to conforming to a system that just doesn't work.

Anybody with similar experiences?

Have you had him assessed for Aspergers? A lot of his behaviour sounds like the son of a friend of mine. He is doing well at school now, but I know that she went through a lot of grief and tears in the process. If he does have Aspergers, I'm sure she wouldn't mind emailing you to give you some tips as to how to proceed.

YES!!! my son has similar traits but thankfully without the hitting out and hes been diagnosed with autism but thankfully asperger as this generally means he is high functioning..too bright for his own good , cant empathise with other children or read there behavior as to how to play,is always bossing other children around as it has to be on his terms as a safety mechanism in him as this makes him feel more secure, all the normal tricks work short term as he soon works them out and is one step of you, he could be creating in class because hes bored, hes too intelligent and needs further stimulation as well as the frustration of not knowing how others feel and why he doesnt fit in..they realise themselves that they are different.. hope this doesnt scare the wits out of you but has anyone ever mentioned autism to you? ask to be referred .. i had to fight for it as i def felt something was wrong and it was me that suggested autism..look on the autism website for more info .. good luck

Asperger's was also my first thought. Aspies are also known for having higher-than-average IQ's. The need to direct/control how games are played is a classic sign. My ds1 will only play alongside other children if they play games in the'right'way. He also finds it hard to sit still for long during carpet time, especially if other children sit too close to him. A dislike of queues is also another sign.

What led to your ds hitting other children? Were they sitting too close, making noises, moving something that belonged to him etc?

I am sorry I don't have anything useful to post, but I just want to say that Nattie's description of her son's behaviour is exactly that of my neighbour's child down to a tee.
She doesn't recognise any of his behaviour as challenging or warranting specific coping strategies and I so wish she would. Unfortunately we have had to stop my DS1 playing with her child, because of the constant attempts to direct play and the bashings with whatever is to hand if things don't go his way. She thinks we are over-reacting and it is just a phase but I can see that her son is fed up with the constant tellings off too. She gets him to say 'sorry' but there is clearly no empathy there, just satisfaction that the dynamic has been changed.
I don't say this to point a finger at a 'naughty' child but to say that I think until she recognises that it is not enitrely fair to ignore her child's needs and put it down to a phase then her child is never going to get fair treatment and will be labelled as a difficult child at school and his obvious brightness and vivid imagination will be eclipsed by his behaviour. This child is already losing friends and no one wants to have him to play in their houses when his parents won't see that to get the best out of this child some different strategies are called for.

So her family now think we are over-reacting and being wet when in fact I desparately want her to consider getting some support for coping with her son. Am I right in thinking it would be very wrong of me to suggest she ask for a diagnosis of some sort? I do feel that if she is aware that she doesn't have to spend her time telling him off and policing his behaviour but use a different strategy more suited to getting the best out of her boy, the whole family would benefit.

I do hope I haven't offended any one or come across as ignorant of any particular behviours, but what I mean to say is that you sound as though you really want to do your best for your son, naturally, and get support from the system for your efforts, Nattie, and I wish you all the best

i`ve just remembered another thing from a course i went on recently about behaviour..one of the reasons some children(autistic children) hit out at others is that they are invading there personal space or even the smell of them as they usually have high sensory awareness, or even the colour of there clothes apparently, sometimes they bite because of the sensory issue..it feels VERY good to an autistic child!!!you would nt believe the reasons it can be for!!

I once taught a girl with similar behaviour - very intelligent but fiercely independent, could not control the volume of her voice and could not cooperate in grps and had a real wild side. She was quite happy playing on her own in the playground & often talked to herself. She was on the autistic spectrum.
She was under no medication but as she has matured she has understood her behaviour more & even said "i'm not like other children"
Sorry I can't give you any answers, but things did get better. Hope this helps

bambi06,
that is very interesting about the biting, my nieghbour's boy used to announce that he was going to bite my boy and would get very excited about the prospect.

Poor you Nattie. I don't know anything about the Childhood Development Centre, but wouldn't they have picked up on an ASD? Do people doing assessments for ADHD only look for that? I can see what everyone means though, it does sound as though something is bothering him quite badly.

Hi Coj

Just wanted to say that the girl you used to teach sounds exactly like my dd. It's good to hear that things did improve. The bit about not being able to control the volume of her voice and have only recently posted on the special needs section about volume control.
I must admit that when I read your post Nattie I too thought of Aspergers. My dd was dx with ADHD too, which she clearly doesn't have. She has problems with concentration due to her poor langauge skills/understanding.
Really hope that you manage to get things sorted out.

Sorry your ds didn't have a dx of ADHD!!!

sorry to hear your difficulties..we had probs with DD1 when baby/toddler... things have def improved now she's 5 but we have our moments.
Now this may strike you as wierd or whatever, but you may want to take a look at The Indigo Child.. (it's an American book but there's loads of web stuff) its all about these "new kids" (why society can't deal with them so many are medicated)..
I found it very interesting- (but you and many others)may just say it's complete rubbish... nevertheless it's just another opinion... what have you to lose?

Ahh tamum - bless you're untouched by the world of dealing with the so called pros. You would think that they would pick up on AS wouldn't you- but I have heard of it being missed time and time again. And in fact I am watching a friend's SIL go through it now. The problem is pros are often incapable of communicating with each other so dx get missed. And only certain people (usually paeds) are allowed to diagnose AS so if you see a behavioural team then it is very easy to be missed.

Nattie my son has autism - and as soon as I read your post I thought AS as well. Has anyone considered it?

My son has trouble sitting down at story time- and is helped greatly by having to sit on a carpet tile - he can do it now- even though he can't understand a word of the story- its a common strategy used in schools.

Defintely agree with coppertop- I think you need to read up on sensory issues (both with and without AS). A good book that talks just about that is The Out of sync child by Carol- something beginning with K- available from Amazon. Also wrth searching for Aspergers- or grabbing a copy of Martian in the Playground by Clare Sainsbury- or any of Tony Attwood's books- they give a very good overview of the condition and would probably give you enough information to decide whether or not it fits.

Hi Nattie, it sounds like you have been through the mill and have done everything you can think of. I have worked with a child psych team and sometimes we saw kids like this - I don't know if they have similar things in the UK but maybe you could go along for a family assessment. It sounds like you have done parenting skills to the nth degree but maybe the problem is about attachment and relationships and finding it difficult to be in a relationship with others and do the give and take stuff. Your ds sounds really bright and I'm glad you don't want to medicate him! It must be tough and him and you both...I don't if this is helpful but hope you get things sorted.

sorry to hear what you are going through - my son's local school uses non-violentcommunication (also known as compassionate communication) with all the children and have had dramatic results - the language on the website is very american but if you can get past that there may be some useful techniques in the 'article' section. another route to look that may be helpful is indigo child . also book called 'the indigo child' you could look up on amazon. another book i've just remembered also via amazon is 'raising your spirited child' (mary sheedy). these may be too alternative for you - hope you find a way through this

Sorry, clutching at straws I guess

Thanks for all the responses - so quickly!

The school and we have thought of aspergers but dismissed it - even the educational psychologist did. He does make friends really easily and is VERY approachable. The trouble is friends just don't stick around because his play is so directional, and full of rules and he ends up hurting them.

If DS was diagnosed with aspergers, what would change at school?

if you look at bottom of indigo website it outlines some of the characteristics that your ds may be familiar with. good luck

Ds1 is also very approachable and seems to attract people like a little magnet, but he still has a diagnosis of ASD/AS. These seem like pretty dubious reasons to dismiss a diagnosis of AS.

I can't keep up with the responses.

I have read THE INIGO CHILD and agree to an extent. I forgot to mention, that we've pretty much got it sussed at home but school is a real problem. Being with 25 other children and a teacher who doesn't have the space or flexibility to adjust to his behaviour. He does have a teaching assistant assigned to him full time and he sits separately for practically everything but this is just the path of least resistance rather than addressing anything and because he doesn't conform to the average, he is the one who is missing out.

If DS is an INIGO CHILD what do we do at school?

agree with coppertop. Not a good reason for dismissing AS. My son is non-verbal autistic- very approachable and as the school keep telling me very affectionate. When I pick him up he usually has a crowd of girls around him stroking him and kissing him. Like coppertop's son many children seem to be attracted to him (especially caring, but bossy little girls).

Ed psychs are not good at recognising AS in my experience. Nor are schools (and judging my my son's mainstream school's knowledge of autism I'm not surprised). Really it needs to be considered by a developmental paediatrician or at least a clinical psychologist.

I know a little boy who was expelled from 2 schools by the age of 5- before being diagnosed with AS. He has just won a scholarship to one of the top public schools in the country. The diagnosis helped enormously- mainly becuase schools start to treat the child in an autism friendly way. It makes a huge difference.

With a dx of AS he would hopefully (ideally) get access to things like socail skills training, and rather than just segregating the school could start to deal with the AS.

Also would recommend Luke Jackson;s book Freaks geeks and Asperger's syndrome.

nattie - don't know how old your ds is but have you thought of the small school/human scale education/steiner/montessori route? this type of education tends to allow for a democratic approach where the children and the parents have real input into their education. there may be somewhere in your area - not for everyone, we tried steiner which was too alternative for us but found a school which is part of the human scale thing (still shadows national curriculum)but plenty of outdoor learning/creativity space and time to be a child!

re The Indigo stuff.. I spoke to a woman (from oz) who has her daughter at a Steiner school... they seem to be the type of education system that can deal with such kids..
Unfortunately it's an uphill struggle with the education system as it is... too many kids don't conform to the archaic values/traditions so there are bound to be probs... does it mean the child has a prob tho- or the system? Indigo say it's the System...

here is human scale education website . sorry after being on mumsnet for over a year i have only just learnt to do links so i'm making up for lost time. i love links me

just been trying to find some info i read recently which talks about how natural it is for children to learn about the world through physical movement, not through the 'chalk and talk' route . stephen biddulph also talks about how the hardest movement for a child to master is the art of sitting still. he talks about the current system being a complete mess 'you would think we were educating senior citizens - not people at their most enthusiastic, vibrant and energetic!' the british system just doesn't allow it.