How do you handle this sort of behaviour in 5 year old's without damaging their natural curiosity?

[Flip]

I posted around Easter time because ds1 had been involved in playing a game where touching each others private bits was involved. This incident was witnessed by dh at a kids play facility. At the time dh and I spoke to ds1 and said that these games shouldn't be played and ds1's friends mum also spoke to her child but we decided not to tell the other childs mum because he had been the instigator.

Ds1 came out with a choice phrase on Saturday of "lick my willy" to his dad. Obviously this wasn't acceptable so we spoke to ds1 about it and he said that the same boy as before had made him play a game of licking willies whilst on a school trip last week. This game happened the seat in front of where the teacher was sat and ds1 told me that the other boy said that they had to hide from the teacher. Ds1 claims that this other boy licked his willie three timea and that he was forced to lick the other boys wilie because he wouldn't stop telling him to.

I told ds1's friends mum about this latest incident this morning and she telephoned the other boys mum straight away. The other boys mum was horrified and said that she was concerned because there had been previous incidents with yet another boy who had infact torn her sons foreskin by yanking it back.

So the question is, where do we go from here? The mother of the boy who I thought was the instigator wants everyone to get together with their children and the class teacher and talk it out. I however feel that informing the teacher would lead to social services being involved.

Is this natural childs play? Ds1 is my eldest so I'm not sure if it is normal or not. But this can't be allowed to carry on because ds1 thinks it's all right for anyone to touch him in that way. I've tried to explain it's not and about bad people but how far do you go.

I'll see if I can find the other thread and link to it.

Thanks in advance for any words of advise you can offer.

Oh Flip well done. I'm so glad you've told someone. This really preyed on my mind; this kid has to be stopped from harming other children, and someone needs to ensure that he gets the help he needs himself. You've been really brave to confront it head-on like this.

That deputy head needs seeing to herself if she thinks psychologists would regard this child's clearly abnormal and coercive behaviour as in any way desirable. Nuts.

I have to pick him up in less than an hour. Do I ask what's being done, what's been said? I spoke to ds1's teacher this morning and she looked completely shell shocked knowing this had happened infront of her on the coach. I've never seen her look so pale.

The instigators parents were with the head master when I got there so I don't know what's gone on. I've been stressing about it all day and I did try and contact the head at dinner time but they were unavailable.

All I know is that they were going to talk to the children today. I think I have a right to know what has been said. What do you think?

yes, i think you have every right to know what was said to the children. if you ask ds himself, you never really know if you have the full story, the extended version or the summary, well i know i wouldn't.
you also have a right to know what measures are being taken to see that this doesn't happen again. e.g. supervised loo visits.
i would go to school a little early and pop in to see the head. presumably the classteacher will be with her class & if it's anything like our school it's v. difficult to get to see anyone at drop off/pick up without talking in front of others.
you need to know the outcome so that you have one less thing to worry about flip.
good luck, go now.

glad you have gone to the school Flip. I am glad his teacher seemed concerned about aswell

Did the teacher seem to already know about it or were you the one to tell her ? At least it sounds as if the school are taking it seriously and as the Head has already met the parents there may well be other issues for this child about which you do not know, as Ghosty suggested.

I think, as the parents of one involved, you have the right to be there is ds is asked specifically about the incident. Otherwise the school should at least be sending a note home regarding what the children have been told, in case there are further questions or incidents yet to come to light,and perhaps including the name of someone to whom the parents can speak in confidence.

good luck

I think it's probably worth thinking about how you would have felt if it had been an adult who was the perpetrator, for want of a better word- I don't think you'd have any hesitation in wanting to know exactly how everything was being dealt with. I realise there are other issues (if this boy is being abused, as seems highly likely, then obviously the school may not be at liberty to disclose everything), but I would certainly want full disclosure of how the whole issue was being handled.

It's such an awful situation. I really feel for everyone involved.

I'm not sure how I feel at the moment. I spoke to ds1's teacher and she said that they hadn't asked the children anything. They'd just talked about good touches and bad touches and how kissing wasn't acceptable.

I don't think they understand how disturbed I am and how disturbed some of the children have been.

The teacher told me that she couldn't discuss is anymore and I had to make an appointment with the head master. The problem is he isn't in until Friday apart from tomorrow morning and he already has a meeting at 9.15am. So the secretary has asked if I can come in at 8.30am. I'll be there and so will dh because he has his hospital appointment tomorrow and isn't going into work until that's over with.

So I feel odd and I'm wondering if I'm reading this wrong. He bullied my son into licking his willie and he licked ds1's three times. He's asked other boys to do it and to let him do it to them. He's instigated a game of putting hands down pants and fingers up bottoms. He's chased girls and pinned them and then kissed or sucked their private bits.

There's a lot of people involved and I feel as if I'm the only one doing anything or that they expect me to be spokesperson.

I think I'm confused. We didn't get an emoticon for that!

Could you get the other worried parents to write letters to the school and/or talk to the teacher too? The school may be able to fob off one set of parents but if other parents are also complaining then it will be harder for the school to avoid the issue.

flip, i too would feel as you would.
sorry off on the brownie run but will write more later.

as you "do"

Flip, I think is better that they have not be over specific with the children but they definitively need to meet with the parents of the children in question, obviously at one end of this chain there's a child that has been or is been sexually abused but this is a very delicate matter that you wouldn't deal with in the open and specially not with the children, but not speaking to the parents or specially to the parents of the instigator can have very serious consequences. This child need to be seen by a qualified professional, school teacher are no prepared to deal with this kind of abuse.

I'm sorry to sound alarmist, but their reaction doesn't sound remotely adequate. This is far more than a bit of horseplay, and has the potential to be really psychologically damaging to the children involved. I don't think a nurse talking to them about "good touching" really cuts the mustard; the children involved need proper informed support from parents or even counsellors of some sort maybe, and you need to be kept informed about how they're proposing to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again. It does seem very hard on you that it's all falling on your shoulders.

It wasn't the nurse, it was just the teacher. I've been trying to reach the nurse all day but she only works two days a week and it's a lottery which days she works. All I can do is phone everyday to see if she's in.

God, you poor thing

Flip,
I'm so sorry you feel so confused and that the matter remains unresolved.

I think the teacher is probably correct in not discussing it - she may well not have been privy to the meeting with the boy's parents and would be talking 3rd hand. However I hope the school actually sent a note to the parents of all the kids spoken to, putting it into some sort of context, otherwise I can't begin to imagine some of the garbled conversations which could be taking place in their homes tonight. I don't think it would be appropriate to ask the children anything directly as a group but further delicate questioning may yet have to take place on an individual basis depending on how far the school takes it.

I hope your meeting with the Head clarifies things for you.

Flip - I just wanted to say well done for trying to get this sorted out. I think it is awful that you seem to be the only one who thinks it's a problem.
If this had happened to one of my kids, or indeed if my child had been the perpetrator I would most definatly want to know about it and would be right up there with you making sure that something got done.

Stick to your guns, you are doing the right thing.

You've mentioned that other parents have discussed this with you and indicated that there have been other incidents. I think you need to flag up to these parents that the school doesn't seem to appreciate the concern and distress of other parents and the children involved and that, if they don't contact the school with their concerns, the whole thing is likely to be swept under the carpet. Strength in numbers.

Having read this whole thread, I think that if it were my child I would call social services, the police and anyone else I could think of. That behavior is totally and completely unacceptable at any age. I grew up in the land of the nudist hippies and what you are describing would never ever be thought of as harmless experimenting. It seems fairly clear that there is a child who is exposed to adult sexual interactions whether through abuse or just watching and I would be very very worried about having my child exposed to this child. If the school is not taking this seriously then think you should force them into doing so. Is putting your ds into another school an option? I find it strange that all this behavior has been happening at school and not one single teacher has noticed anything. Sounds like there may not be adequate supervision for 5 year olds. Missing one or two incidents is one thing, but missing ALL of them sounds odd.

I agree SofiaAmes. The list of things that this kid has been doing is so appalling that it was only later I started to wonder how on earth any child could do all that at school without detection? It makes me almost pleased that ours just have a hard concrete playground with no nooks and crannies. Whatever the layout of the school, though, it does sound as though there's been gross dereliction of duty somewhere.

I hope you keep going maybe the other parents do not have Mn to help them out , it needs to be addressed and I think youkeep going on to protect all the children involved. i think you are handling this really well and sensitively Good luck for tomorrow.

But please not forget that the "perpetrator" is a victim himself and probably the one that who has been worsely damaged.

Flip, I felt physically sick when I read this yesterday and logged off without any comment as I wanted to try and forget about it - it wasn't a nice way to start the day - and I thought, Flip seems to have the right approach, sensible, etc, and will do what she has to do for her child. Then I read this morning that nobody is taking this seriously and you have gone into more detail, fingers up bottoms, etc. Feeling more sick now.

I would call the police and explain the situation either at your home or go to the local station as you are obviously not being listened to. Actually, thinking about it, going to local station will save a police car pulling up outside your home. I think they will take you very seriously and will act. The peadophile unit (if a peadophile is what your son's friend has been in contact with) will know of all the suspects in the area. I have a true story to illustrate this: a friend of mine one evening had a visit from the police who knocked on her door. When inside the house, they said that her nanny had started a relationship with a convicted child abuser and did they know this boyfriend? They were obviously deeply shocked and did not know the boyfriend. When the family approached the nanny and told her of his record, she obviously had no idea, was very upset and ended the relationship. The police ssaid that this boyfriend had targeted the nanny to get close to children and advised the family that there was no guarantee that the nanny would not secretly restart the relationship and for the sake and protection of their children, they might want to change their nanny. They gave her a month's notice and that was that. My point is, the Police have a lot of resources to track known abusers and take it very seriously, not only that, their aim is to PROTECT children and not to brush things under the carpet. This boy may be being abused by his father or male relation and they may not know the person who is a threat, but they will find out and this will lead to the protection of other children.

While schools have to provide a safe, stimulating environment for our children, they do not want any trouble, bad publicity or bad associations, etc. Have these incidents with this child been happening at the school or at one of the childrens' homes? (Sorry, can't re-read thread to remind myself). If this has happended at school, say at playtime, the Head will then have trouble on his hands and will have some explaining to do. It is in his interests to brush this under the carpet, play it down, etc as he doesn't want an investigation or bad publicity in local or national newspapers.

To demonstrate a private and expensive school's attitude I have another true story: I have a friend who provided pastoral care for girls at a private girls secondary school. She was taken into confidence by a lot of girls about things they couldn't discuss with their parents, and through her training (Masters in Psychology) she obviously learnt how to detect if a child was being sexually abused. There was one particular girl who was being abused by her father: she was a teenager and it had been going on for years. Her father was a wealthy, successful, highly educated man with a lot of clout. When my friend discussed this with the Head, she wanted to involve social services, she was told not to, that she was to leave it. She left the school as she felt she was not able to really protect these girls when they needed it most.

My last true story: I heard rumours while I was at secondary school that our Headmaster was interested in teenage boys. I thought the idea was ludicrous and put it down to immature, senseless gossip. About two years later, once I had left the sixth form, I heard that our Headmaster had been accused of peadophile activities with underage pupils and I STILL thought it was a ridiculous story. THEN a friend of mine showed me an article in the Daily Mail which named him and the school and he was convicted of abusing teenage boys on the adventure trip that took place annually. One boy told his parents who called the police and it transpired that he had been abusing a number of boys for years. He was sentenced to 10 years imprisonment.

You have discussed this with DS's teacher, the nurse isn't in and the Headmaster has a 9.15am meeting and won't be in until Friday. Yes, you could make an appointment with the Head for Friday, but that leaves four days for more/the same children to be exposed to this child.

Flip PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do something about this today - go to the local police station - DON'T LEAVE IT ANY LONGER. Have you discussed this with your husband? And if you are going to do something about this today, and I sincerely hope you are, are you going to take your child to school? You want to make sure that the Head or the Teacher don't "interview" him and put him in a difficult position.

Please don't ponder on this any more - ACT NOW!!

Shall be watching this thread to see what happens.

BE STRONG

Email me if you want to - YOU MUST ACT NOW!

Been following this, as my ds is nearly 5 and in reception too.

I agree with other posters that the things you describe go way beyond any normal experimentation or rude play, and I would consider them completely unacceptable. How has this been going on without the school noticing?? I find it truly alarming that they are being so laid back.

There are a couple of children at my ds's school who are known to have a tendency to play silly games; there are a few more who are known to be very over-sexualised because of what is happening at home. The school are aware of these cases and social services are involved where appropriate.

FWIW I think the school's attitude is downright negligent -- how can five-year olds be coerced by other children into removing their underwear at school and performing sexual acts without the teacher or playground supervisor noticing??!!! Would they notice if a child was stealing other kids' money or beating them up? I don't see how this can be considered a safe environment for children to be in, if the supervision is so inadequate.

It's hard to say what I would do without being in the situation myself, but I suspect I would follow SofiaAmes in keeping my child home from school, and telephoning Social Services and/or the police.

After all, what you're describing is 4 and 5-year old children being sexually abused in their school environment, albeit by another child rather than an adult. This is clearly unacceptable, and I would expect it to be taken very seriously.

Strongly agree, call social services or the police, obviously the school is not prepared enough or in a position to sort the problem themselves.