How do you handle this sort of behaviour in 5 year old's without damaging their natural curiosity?

[Flip]

I posted around Easter time because ds1 had been involved in playing a game where touching each others private bits was involved. This incident was witnessed by dh at a kids play facility. At the time dh and I spoke to ds1 and said that these games shouldn't be played and ds1's friends mum also spoke to her child but we decided not to tell the other childs mum because he had been the instigator.

Ds1 came out with a choice phrase on Saturday of "lick my willy" to his dad. Obviously this wasn't acceptable so we spoke to ds1 about it and he said that the same boy as before had made him play a game of licking willies whilst on a school trip last week. This game happened the seat in front of where the teacher was sat and ds1 told me that the other boy said that they had to hide from the teacher. Ds1 claims that this other boy licked his willie three timea and that he was forced to lick the other boys wilie because he wouldn't stop telling him to.

I told ds1's friends mum about this latest incident this morning and she telephoned the other boys mum straight away. The other boys mum was horrified and said that she was concerned because there had been previous incidents with yet another boy who had infact torn her sons foreskin by yanking it back.

So the question is, where do we go from here? The mother of the boy who I thought was the instigator wants everyone to get together with their children and the class teacher and talk it out. I however feel that informing the teacher would lead to social services being involved.

Is this natural childs play? Ds1 is my eldest so I'm not sure if it is normal or not. But this can't be allowed to carry on because ds1 thinks it's all right for anyone to touch him in that way. I've tried to explain it's not and about bad people but how far do you go.

I'll see if I can find the other thread and link to it.

Thanks in advance for any words of advise you can offer.

Here is the link to the other one.

Hi flip,

I was one of the people who posted on your original thread and said I thought it was natural childish curiosity and not to worry too much.

I've changed my mind: this sort of behaviour is way beyond what I would class as normal "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" behaviour. I think you MUST tell the teacher - the fact that this happened on a school trip is completely unacceptable. What on earth did the Mum of the boy whose foreskin was torn previously do about that? Who is the other child who is involved. This really doesn't right to me - it sounds a lot more sinister than childish curiosity. I don't want to be alarmist but whoever instigated this type of behavour needs some help - asap. Social Services becoming involved may be for the best.

You really don't need this at the moment do you, hon? (((HUGS)))

I'm sorry this is still an issue for you and hope you can sort it out discreetly. However I'd agree with Marthamoo. Just the fact that this happened on a school trip means that the teacher should be informed. I can understand your reluctance but there may well be more to it on the part of the other two boys and so far it sounds as if your ds and his friend are innocent parties to the "game". How likely is it that other kids have been subjected to the same ?

Good luck

agree with marthamoo, definately

I would be very concerned about what was happening to the instigator at home and it must be reported! This is not normal behaviour and sounds like the poor child is beingabused.

The school will report it as they are duty bound and it does need to be dealt with.

iiwy i would explain that "any" touching is unaccerptable.

Oh, dear, Flip - agree with the others that this does have to be reported to school - have no idea whether Social Services would necessarily be involved or, if so, if all of you would be affected or just the 4th boy's family. (This 4th boy is also at your school? Or somewhere else?)

Also agree with moo that you could do without this on top of everything else. Hugs from me too.

I'd report it to the school as well - they don;t have to report it to social services. They have procedures and will report it if they deem it worrying enough. Also social services may not do anything, but at least it will be recorded and logged.

This does concern me - I am guessing that your child is of primary age and as a primary school teacher I would be very worried if any of my children starting talking like this. so I would tell the school for the other little boys sake - you never know what is going on his home.

i think that you ought to mention it at school. staff have training with how to deal with such things and will only call in SS if they feel they need to. by what you have said the teacher/head will look most closely at the story of the instigator and may contact SS with concerns about this boy and his family.
it does make me wonder what is happening in that family, by talking at school about it flip you may well be the saviour of this little boy.
is school closed tho' next week?
are you comfortable leaving it until the week after?

I agree with everyone else. Not only was this not a simple "I'll show you mine if yous show me yours" type of game, your ds has admitted that he was forced to go along with it. I would report it for your own peace of mind and for the sake of the boy who instigated it.

Gosh, the only experience of this I had with my ds was when he and his friends thought it was funny to expose themselves to the dinner lady and make her shriek.
They got hauled in to see the thead teacher and told about inappropraite behaviour. It becomes obvious that some children are exposed to sexual material or hear sexual phrases, it has always made me cringe as it has meant explaining things to my ds when I wasn't ready to do it.
His was just harmless fun, he was following the "leader" who was sexually aware even as a 5yr old which was the age they did this.
I firmly explained that ones willy was ones private part and that only he was allwoed to touch it unless there was a reason for mummy needing to help him wash it r for any doctor type issue.
I said that if he was any older it would be considered against the law and taken very seriously so if he could keep his willy to himself and his room that would be great. It worked well.
But with your situatio you ahve anothe child reeating VERY inappropriate phrases and exhibiting alarming behaviour, the teacher would probably have to alert social services, as potentially (but not always) this kind of early sex talk can be an indication of abuse.
Do not be afraid of social services, they are not the evil baby snatchers we xometimes see them as, this sort of behaviour needs to be nipped in the bud and it would be best for the school to know as they can best monitor the children at school...

Agree with Piffleoffagus, children this age don't get to make these phrases by themselves, they could have overheard it, but this may also be a sure sign of abuse, be aware that some sexual abuse is not necesarily violent and the child may go on without saying anything because in all his/her innocence he/she doesn't realise that this is not a game but a horrible crime until later in life.

I would be very concerned and try to find the root of this behaviour not only for the sake of your child but also for the one of his/her friends.

Good luck

Back to your question of how to deal with it without damaging their natural curiosity. I wouldn't make a big fuss about it when talking to the child (surely with the grown ups I would speak volumes)) but being hard on the child could cause a terrible damage and make him feel guilty or embarrased about something he is not responsible for.

I am concerned that making a big deal of this with the children involved will only highlight what we don't want highlighting. In ds1's case, mum says don't do it, so he does it.

I did have a long chat with ds1 and told him that if he was telling the truth then I would believe him but if I found out later he wasn't telling the truth then he'd be in serious trouble. He told me then that he'd lied because originally he'd said he hadn't licked his friends willy and then he admitted he had because this boy had forced him to.

I went down the path of telling him it wasn't right and that how would he feel if a man did that to him. To my horror, he said it was okay because someone had already done that (meaning his friend) and even though he didn't want him to it didn't hurt. I told him that it wasn't alright for anyone to touch him and that mum and dad didn't touch him so no one else should.

I know he takes everything in that gets said and plenty more when you think he isn't listening. He'll be analysing this.

After posting about his meltdown on Tuesday I'm wondering if this is somehow related when his anger was about going to school. The trip was Monday.

I'm sorry Flip but I agree with Beetroot. My heart goes out to you, it's an awful thing to have happened. However, I honestly think it is essential to tell the school, from a social responsibility point of view even if you don't think your son will benefit (though I think he would, quite honestly). This is not normal exploratory behviour by any stretch of the imagination, and as hercules and others have said it seems almost certain to indicate some worse form of abuse that has been going on.

Being blunt about it, if my ds had been treated like this at school (or on a school trip) and I later found out that the same boy had done it before to someone else, but his mother had not reported it I would be horrified and feel extremely let down by the mother. Sorry

Flip, as I said before I also think this needs to be addressed by school, and I agree with the mother who wants all of you + class teacher to discuss it together - I believe you are much more likely to get an approximation of the truth when the boys have to tell their versions in front of each other.

(Granted they are very little and won't have the same kind of recall that an adult would, but still, if one of them says something that the others flatly contradict it should be clear what is more like the truth, IYSWIM. I do hope you can get it all straight and persuade them to stop it.)

I've read both your threads. I would certainly agree with the consensus on the April one that messing around in the playpark is normal 5 year old behaviour.

As for this thread, I have mixed feelings. I think that a five yeer old saying 'lick my willy' could be naughty rather than automatically alarming. This is based very much on my own experience. When my oldest son was 5 he was friends with a little boy who was always coming out with choice phrases about bottoms and willies. Granted, I can't remember exactly how explicit he was at 5 years old, but I remember being very taken aback. But then he loved wierd and wonderful facts about animals and insects and was always coming out with these as well. He is now 10 years, with a keen interest in gory history, very bright and imaginative and I am sure he is not abused. I think he liked to say shocking things for effect. As far as I know, the words did not lead to any actions.

My youngest son (nearly 5) is a bit the same. He is coming out of a taking-clothes-off-in public phase after us telling him he is too big now to run around naked when he is out, or pee behind the nearest tree every time he wants a wee wee. A few weeks after starting reception, he mooned at the head teacher, much to the intense embarassment of my oldest son. I think he has also shown his willy at school once or twice. He is a very physical boy, very physically confident, and that also includes being into his willy in a big way. He has few inhibitions. Just this weekend he was running around saying 'smell my willy!!' to his brother, who immediately told us. I promise you we do not abuse ds2! ds2 got a talking to for saying that. We have said talking about willies is not something people do, does daddy talk about his willy like this? and we have said it might seem a joke to him, but his teachers won't find it funny. But also ds2 has plenty of other things he talks about and likes. I bet his toy cars win over his willy any day. When I eavesdrop on to him playing, I've never caught him talking about willies.

The school never called us in about the mooning incident, and as far as I know, ds2 has never been obsessed with playing willy games in or out of school. Never played secret games or forced others to do things. I wouldn't be surprised if he has show his willy to a friend, though, a bit like the examples on your other thread.

But that doesn't mean your second thread doesn't make me alarmed, flip. For me the two things that stand out are the game playing on the school trip (sounds like it oversteped the line from silly to serious) and the ripped foreskin, also something that happened at school. I think for those reasons you must tell the school. I think you might have to name names, but you could open the discussion by saying a classmate of your son is doing 'a.b.c', being explicit about what your son told you. And also say that the parents of other children involved know and have suggested getting together with the teacher to talk it out. Then ask the teacher if they want to know which child did what or if they want to treat the issue generally in class, getting individual parents to talk to their children at home. It could be that the teacher has some idea of what's happening and might already be taking steps to end it. It could be that the boy is already known to social services. But I also think it would be a good for the parents to talk to the teacher as your friend suggested, so you have an agreed plan of action.

Deep breath ready for tomorrow.

I got more and more stressed last week as other people started to tell me what their children had been forced to do by this child. As recently as tonight I had a phone call from another mum who was really upset because she'd asked her dd what games she played. Her dd had said they were horrible games and she didn't like them because X wanted to suck her flower. Another mum said that her ds had been told he'd get kicked if he didn't suck X's willie.

These are five year olds. I no longer think that there is anything normal or child like about this. I got to the point last week where I drove down to school and saw a few cars in the car park. So I went in and the deputy head was there. I told her everything I knew and all my gut feelings and she took notes. I felt quite mad when she said that some phycologists would love this sort of behaviour in children because it meant there were aware of their own bodies. Although she did redeem herself slightly when she said that wasn't here view and that she was going to get the school nurse involved to talk about good touches and bad touches.

I'm going to insist that the school send a letter out to all parents about this because if I didn't know, I'd want to. Yes it's embarassing for X's parents but I'm past the point of caring. I'm also glad that I went in alone because I got to speak my mind without fear of upsetting anyone. But I'll be there tomorrow morning and there will be plenty of talk about this.

THinking of you today hope it goes ok, well done for speaking out / up

good luck for this morning flip.
yes, if i were another parent i too would definely want to know but i would hate to read it in a letter. i think they ought to contact each parent personally, face-to-face.

good luck, flip. I think it was a good move to see the head alone. Getting the school nurse to explain good touches and bad touches sounds like a good idea too. The more you say, the more it looks like the school needs to take firm and immediate action. But are you ok about letting the school take the lead in this? what will you do if the head refuses your request of sending a letter to all parents? I hope some of the mumsnet teachers can post on here - this situation may be something they have come up against before.

The more I think about it, the more I have to agree with mummysurfer. As a parent I don't think I'd want to read specific details in a letter. It would raise so many question in my mind, that I would have to meet with teachers anyway. A general letter inviting me to discuss this with teachers would work better for me.

tigermoth, i'm a teacher too and think the school could go either way on this. perhaps it would be better if flip didn't expect any answers this morning but gave the school time to decide the most effective way to deal with this. tbh there is no 'right way'. the head will hopefully 'know' the parents and the best way to tackle this situation with the people she is dealing with. if pressed for immediate action it may well not be the most effective. we all need time to make important decisions. but with the nature of this decision i think flip ought to expect answers by close of school today.

good luck flip

Dear Flip ...
I have just caught up with this thread ... and just wanted to say good luck.
I also posted on your other thread, saying that it seemed like normal behaviour (my 4.5 year old DS is very much into "Smell my bottom" etc) but now it is clear to me that something very very worrying is afoot with the young instigator.
I too am a teacher (or I was up until 2 years ago) and I think the headteacher should take this very seriously. Don't be surprised if she doesn't want to send a letter out to all the parents. She does also have to protect the child who is the instigator and a letter would not do that. She might know much more about the family than you think. The child might already be on the 'at risk' list for all we know ... and if so they will have some kind of procedure to follow ...
I do believe a talk to all the children about appropriat touching is in order ... and without making too much of a fuss with your DS, telling him that anyone wanting to touch his private parts is unacceptable (I think you already did that didn't you?)
Anyway ... this will not get to you in time for today but good luck ... thinking of you ... xxxx