question for mums of 'gentle' toddlers

[strangerthanfiction]

Hi, this will probably sound a bit neurotic. My dd is 19 months and is a very gentle soul. I mean she doesn't do rough-and-tumble type stuff, plays very quietly, has a quiet voice and is rather serious and independent. This is all absolutely fine but it does worry me when I see her trying to cope with other kids the same age and older. I take her to a few playgroups and she invariable gets knocked over constantly, has everything she's playing with ripped out of her hands or destroyed. Sometimes she gets very upset and just buries her head in my lap, others she's more stoic and just stands there looking confused and a bit wide-eyed. The thing is that at some point I'd quite like her to go to nursery and I just don't know how a child of her temperament will fit in or if she'll just have a really miserable time. I have to say I'm not saying my dd's an angel and all the others are monsters, they're not, they're lovely kids but are just more boisterous and out-going than dd. When I'm in this kind of situation with her I try to leave her to fend for herself as much as I can but I actually find it rather painful. She's also very small andl ight for her age and this of course brings out all my protective instincts.

I really hope I don't sound like a stupid old mother hen with this message. Any advice gratefully received.

I certainly don't let other children attack my son - no way. The only reason he got bitten was because he was in the home corner thing and I literally couldn't get in there fast enough. I stay pretty close to him - not necessarily playing with him or interfering - but supervising. I wish more parents did the same then kids wouldn't stagger home with bite marks on their faces and split lips. When the kid who bit my son (older that him - near four, I'd say) sank his fangs in, his mother was nowhere near - in another room actually. I had to retrieve and comfort my son and tell the boy off myself - and then his mother ambled over, apologised perfunctorily and said, "Yes, he's been doing that a lot since I had my ds2" and I acted all understanding but actually thought, 'well you should supervise him properly then, you dozy cow'. Biting is pretty normal in toddlers, yes, but if you know your nearly four year old is in the habit of biting chunks out of younger kids, then I think you should watch him like a hawk. Grrr.
My ds, when he finds all the rough and tumble too much, goes and sits quietly with the babies.

I think somehow I have raised two gentle thoughtful souls... My DS did get very cross with "why do other children do this to me" and it still goes on now aged 10, I think you have to nurture their soul, tell them that they are different to other children but that it is ok and to priase them for not retaliating, all in all this has worked well, but is backfiring at the moment with DS, but it will iron out in the end.
My DD now simply does not go to toddler groups as she is not walking I think it woudl be dangerous to put her with boiterous toddlers when she can barely stand up and has not inkling of fending for herself.
Next time I am having a toughie...
PS DS loved nursery.....

Again, thanks for the brilliant replies, I feel I've learnt a lot from all your experiences.

I'm convinced now that nursery would be much better than a toddler group. And I agree with all of you that toddler groups would undoubtedly be much more enjoyable if the moms looked at the kids a bit more closely. I really don't feel comfortable telling off someone else's child and aloha's right if you know your kid is likely to hurt a smaller one then it's a good idea to keep them close by. Unfortunately the bit of London I live in has very mixed kinds of parenting from the very good to the absolutely dire. I've seen a grown man who resembled in lots of ways Phil Mitchell off Eastenders clout his little boy (maybe 2 years old) so hard that he flew across the grass and hit his head on a tree. That sort of stuff. And moms who look like they'd like to kick your head in if you even thought to intervene in what their child was doing.

Then again I'm in the soppy mom camp. I felt so upset about seeing little dd yesterday that I had nightmares all night about something happening to her. She's with her dad today while I'm at work and he's going to take her off to Tate Modern this afternoon where she loves to romp and stomp and has lots of adults to show off to! It's a nice relief to know she's safe and sound.

It's not always easy to watch 2 kids though Aloha. And children can be very fast. DS1 went from having never been in the incident book in 2 years (except when he'd been hit) to being in the 6 times in two weeks for pinching. And he has a full time one to one- he's just fast.

I watch him but I also have to watch ds2 who may be at the other side of the room- luckily ds1 tends to give warning signs if he's going to pinch (he sizes the other kids up with a funny smile on his face) but I could never guarantee that I could prevent it 100% of the time.

Jimjams, I do understand what you are saying, but in this case she had a tiny, sleeping baby which she was wearing in a sling. I do realise children bite - my own son sometimes bit at the year - 18month stage. But she just wasn't anywhere near him and as she gaily told me, he had a habit of frequent biting - and he was a big boy. Poor ds had a huge bite mark and big purple bruise on his face. I really felt very cross with her. I don't think a visit to a playgroup should mean you don't have to take any responsibility for your children (that's a general comment, btw, not about you, of course).

Also, he bit because he didn't want my ds to be in the home corner with him. After his chomped his face his mother let him go straight back in and poor ds was far too scared. I wanted to say to her, er, no, the idea is that you take him out of the home corner as a punishment for biting. Now he's got what he wants he will feel free to do it again.

No- I agree and I do my best. But I do know how fast he can be- and having watched 6 children wondering around nursery with bruises and scratches on their face I wanted to die! However he is very fast and even with one person responsible for him in one room they were unable to prevent it happening 3 times on one afternoon (twice). My son's the biggest boy in his nursery (not sure that's relevant though as he's been hit but children smaller than him- and a bite or pinch hurts not matter the size of the person delivering it).

The trouble with biting is that children can be quite ostracised by it (and parents can see it is something terrible) when the child delivering it is being no "meaner" than the child who is hitting.

Thank god ds1 has never discovered biting, but I have a friend who has had years of biting from her son (and she's had input from all sorts- and she's not a flaky mother she has tried everything- imo he needs a proper assessment which she's been trying to get for about 2 years now) and she just couldbn't prevent it so in the end had to basically stop going out.

Yes, jimjams, this is the other side of the coin, I realise that. And I do have sympathy for moms trying to keep an eye on 1 / 2 kids who are fairly boisterous. I think aloha was pointing out though that there are some moms who aren't as diligent or responsible for what their kids do. When I go with dd to playgroup about half the time she gets 'knocked about' by kids whose moms are clearly 'there' in the sense that they're trying to teach them the consequences of their actions, and half the time by kids who can be incredibly rough and have no-one around to even tell them to try not to bite or push. That's when it's hard for me because I don't feel right saying something to someone else's child and risking being bitten by their mom myself , and also because I only have 1 child who's younger I'm not sure what the best way to 'tell off' an aggressive child is. Mostly I stick pretty close to dd's side and try to fend off an 'attack' before it happens and although I know a certain amount of 'rough and tumble' is inevitable, I'd rather it didn't happen quite so much.

Well I have read (sadly I have needed to read up on this!) that it is more effective to make a fuss of the victim than of the perpetrator - which is something you clearly can do when someone else's child is aggressive to yours. I wouldn't so much go for a 'telling off' of the child, but I might say something like 'look, X is crying/upset, I think that hurt her, don't you?' and perhaps invite an apology. This is what I do when ds1 is the perpetrator (I also tell him that we don't hit people) but I generally don't make a huge thing of it as I think it can be counter productive (giving more attention for negative behaviour) - I try to switch my attention to the injured child and ask them if they are ok. I also prefer to talk it through with him afterwards when we are both less emotional.
(I should hastily add that this is not a particularly frequent occurrence, though it did happen a few times when ds2 was very new...)

Actually this is something I find incredibly difficult. If ds1 pinches someone shouting is the worst thing I can do as it will just reinforce the behaviour making it more likely to happen again. Although having said that piching children in itself is quite reinforcing as they tend to shout (who can blame them it hurts).

We try to deal with it by giving a very clear message whenever he pinches an adult- so "no pinching" in a neutral tone and NOW response form the adult (VERY important and something my MIL just could not understand and I hold her responsible for the recent outbreak) and he's either put out of the room (although that can at times be reinforcing so have to keep an eye on that one) or turned away from us. Anything stronger and he just thinks its funny and will do it again immediately.

Luckily he's spent most of his life being the one being hit/smacked/pushed - as it FAR FAR easier to be the parent in those circumstances. When he's hurt other people at toddler groups it's usually been through being completely unaware that another child was even there ("i want to shut this door and cannot undersatand why there's a thing in the way" (the thing just happens to be a child's hand). The pinching is very recent.

I personally find it hard though as I know the the sort of response that's expected by the other parent will a)be more likely to make him do it again and b) is unfair on him. But most people aren't ready to listen to an explanation of ABA techniques when their kids is howling with a big scratch down their face. So I get stuck with either playing my role of telling him off which I really resent having to do, and actually no longer do, or just being tut tutted at. Or what I actually do which is avoid non-understanding envrionments.

I used to wish he would push other kids back a bit as he spent 4 and a half years being trampled on (and still does a lot of the time). And yes I got annoyed with the oblivious parents. Now I wish he would just remian the one being beaten up tbh.

jimjams - you seen the new ads from the Autistic Society? I thought they were rather good at giving an glimpse of what it is like for Autistic people (not having any direct experience IFYKWIM) what do you think of them?

NO response from the adult not NOW.

DS1 wouldn't even notice if I was making a fuss of another child unfortunately- he might but he wouldn't have a clue it had anything to do with his behaviour. That's another thing I find difficult- trying to deal with ds1 in the "correct" way whilst also trying to make enough fuss of the other child to appease the other child's parents.

I'm not trying to stick up for oblivious parents. Just trying to point out a slightly different view that very occasionally there may be a reason for a particular approach. Just in case any of your kids run into my son.

Haven't seen them katierocket. Will keep an eye open though. I've just been out shopping and bought Charlotte Moore's book which I think will be interesting for me as I think her experiences of autism are maybe similar to mine.

if you go here jimjams you should be able to open pdfs of them (go to bottom of page)
autism ads
they've been running in national press.

They're good- thanks for that. The eye one is definitely ds1. He can't sit in a strange place as he has to check out everything first. I'm always stunned by the things he notices. When we walk past estate agents he can spot a washing line on house details that I can hardly see (something like the corner of it peeping over a fence). He'll be shouting "aya een" standing a foot back- after peering closesly at the picture for about 30 seconds I'll spot it. No idea how he does it!

He also remembers which adverts of washing machines, hoovers etc are in which magazine, and he'll find the magazine a month later and start shouting. I obviously have no idea which picture he's thinking off so am frantically flicking through trying to find the right one!

I'm really taking on board what you're saying Jimjams and finding it very interesting. To be honest if I was in a situation with dd and a child who 'hurt' her however deliberately or not and the parent of the 'attacker' was there doing whatever 'technique' they liked to respond to the situation that would be fine by me. I never expect anyone else's mother to make a fuss of dd or to apologise madly, I just want to know they're aware of what's happening and not just ignoring it. I would also NEVER shout at someone else's child or take for granted that I understand why they're behaving as they are, the most I would be likely to do is say something like 'don't push, she's only little' or that kind of thing. I'm very conscious of knowing very little about kids in general especially older ones. I think if you saw some of the events that have happened to dd at playgroup you'd see what I mean about why I'm frustrated by the mother /child situation at this particular playgroup.

I have no experience yet of dd doing anything agressive to another child and may well change my mind if I did but at the moment I find it hard to imagine preferring to have the 'victim' child rather than the 'aggressor' as dd has been really hurt and shaken by some local kids and seems to be getting more and more nervous of children, even the nice ones! So I do worry about what sort of effect this will have on her in the future. We were in the playground today and there's a little slide she normally loves going on but today she wouldn't go near it until all the other children had gone well out of the way. It's sensible in one way but at the same time it's very sad.

Sorry, I don't mean to jump in here in the middle of your conversation, but I'm just curious --- what happens if she plays with a smaller group of children, like one or two other children only? Does she like interacting with that size group?

Hi maomao, jump in whenever you like!

Actually I have two mom friends with a girl (2.5) and a boy (3) who I see fairly regularly and she LOVES it. She doesn't really 'interact' with them but she's a bit young for that but she's interested and observant and 'talks' about what they've done later. She also remembers their names so i think they're quite important to her. The girl is very active and loud and bouncy and dd does her usual keeping a slight distance but she also laughs her head off at some of her antics. The boy is very quiet and gentle and dd seems very at ease with him. As I said somewhere earlier dd is actually a very sociable little girl, I don't think she's even particularly shy, she's just 'gentle' can't think of a better way to describe her.

really interesting thread. As both my sons were outgoing, lively, pyhsical toddlers I have never had the experience of raising a quiet, gentle one. The quiet behaviour you describe is so unlike my boys' toddler behaviour.

Jimjams, I really feel for you. My oldest son at 4/5 years old hit out sometimes and he was so fast as well. He was good much of the time, and played very well with other children, and there was no knowing when he would hit.

It can be so difficult to punish your own child in a way you feel is appropriate, while appeasing the victim and parents of the injured victim. For me the whole thing got complicated if I knew my son had not hit out of malice or intention. Sometimes he used to get carried away playing a game, arms flailing around, running all over the place. If a child happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, they would get hurt. Yes, my son was at fault, but not in the same way as if he had gone up to the child on purpose and hit them.

well yes tigermoth- that is exactly the problem I have. I would still describe my son as gentle- but he pinches for reaction. Not out of agression at all. Yesterday when I picked him up from school his LSA asked me to cut his nails as the poor woman had scratches all up his arm. Luckily she is as fantastic as someone can be and went to great pains to tell me she knew he wasn't being aggessive. BUt becuase he isn't being aggressive it can make it harder to see it coming. for example he went thorugh a stage of going up to people giving them a really big cuddle and then pinching the hell out of them! Luckily this was all adults (he wouldn't cuddle a child) and we all got wise to it pretty quickly!

He likes pinching ds2 at the moment because ds2 then scremas and opens his mouth really wide- and ds1 likes to look at his tonsils and teeth (I think - he kind of peers in his mouth luaghing). How the hell do I say to someone "sorry he's not being aggessive he just wants to see your child's teeth!" Especially when my son is 5 and looks completely normal.

He still doesn't give a stuff about toys really, will occasionally have a bash at getting a car off someone but really he doesn't care- kids take stuff off him all the time.

And no I definitely prefer it when he is being the one being pushed around as he forgets it within seconds, whilst I remember it for ages if he does the hurting, or have to "punsh" him inappropriately. I've even found myself taking him up to a child before and saying "say sorry". WTF? And then it makes it worse because of course he doesn't (because he can't) so we get even more glares. I make sure I don't do that one anymore.

Well, in the example I gave, the boy was playing perfectly appropriately (ie not autistic) in the home corner - he had been there for some minutes (and in a different room for his mother for quite a long time) so there was no question of his being too fast for his mother. I am pretty sure there were no extenuating circumstances, to be honest. My son also wanted to play in the home corner, and I was watching him (as opposed to being in the other room, yakking) but because the door is very low and the walls are quite high, and because I didn't expect a boy of that age to bite, I couldn't intervene quickly enough to stop my son getting a whacking great bite mark on his face, which really hurt and upset him. But even when my son started screaming, this woman still didn't appear. The boy was looking very pleased with himself as my son had run out of the home corner so I told him very sharply that it was nasty to bit and he mustn't bite. Eventually ambled over and apologised BUT - and this is what really enraged me - she let her son carry on playing there while my son was too frightened to go in again. I wasn't expecting her to beat her son to death, but I would expect her to say, "Right, if you can't play nicely in there then you can't play there at all' and remove him. That's not too much to ask. I do realise you are struggling with a particular and particularly difficult set of circumstances, Jimjams, but I'm afraid there are plenty of lazy, careless, 'who gives a stuff as long as my kid's OK' mothers out there who are busy raising kids who think it is fine to hit and bite other children. BTW I later saw the same boy hitting a much smaller girl pretty hard with a plastic toy and making her cry - again, the mother was nowhere to be seen. Kids like that can make a visit to a playgroup pretty traumatic for others.

BTW I personally don't like pushing little kids to 'say sorry' because they don't understand it and I don't think it makes any difference to their behaviour. But I do think if a perfectly normal child is attacking other kids and the mother knows it is likely to happen, then it really isn't too much to ask that she makes an effort to supervise them.

I did say earlier that I wasn't sticking up for oblivious mothers. Ds1 has been at the mercy of those kids often enough. I'm just saying that personally I prefer it when he is on the receiving end, and that when he does pinch I do get the impression that I'm seen as an oblivious mother- mainly becuase I don't make him apologise I think.

However its all a bit academic as its incredibly rare that I go anywhere with a room full of NT kids, so at most social occasionas these days I'm busy preventing ds2 from being hurt by a child who can't help it.

Well, I don't make ds apologise either - I think it's a pointless exercise. And I personally don't like it when a toddler is pushed at me to say 'sorry', when they clearly don't understand the concept at all. I also think that small children are more physical in their reactions and that is only to be expected, but there are a few (and IME it is only a few) kids who are show aggressive behaviour and aren't supervised and that can make a pleasant experience into a miserable one for other children - be they NT, autistic, big or small.