Not Coping with his Temper

[WedgiesMum]

My heart is absolutely breaking with this and I just feel so hopeless, I don't know what to do. DS is 5 and in his second term at school. He is really bright, but emotionally very very volatile. He has tantrums at school on a daily basis, and has been sent home from school twice because he can't calm down. He is frightening the other children with his erratic behaviour. Some days he is mostly calm and controlled and others he flies off the handle at the smallest things. It's partly to do with not being able to cope in a big group I think, he likes to be first to do everything all the time, he wants to be the leader at everything, he wants to sit exactly where he wants and can't cope if someone moves into his place when he goes off to get his pencil from his drawer. He throws stuff, rips up his work or crosses it out if it is not perfect (in his opinion), gets angry if he gets a question wrong - god I could go on. He is worst when he is hungry, tured or ill, but not completley perfect when there is nothing wrong.

It's not the same at home, his temper is much milder, and during the holidays we can go for days without even a flicker but I think that is because he gets much more individual attention. When he is in a good mood he is loving and caring, generous, happy and funny and really patient (like yesterday he waited 25 minutes in a queue to go on a bouncy castle), but can't seem to maintain it at school. We have tried everything we can think of. We have very firm rules about behaviour at home, and school does too. there are definite consequences for bad behaviour, things he does not like. He gets plenty of positive reinforcement. He is on a no enumbers diet, has a multivitamin and fishoil everyday and I've just started him at a cranial osteopath.

We had a meeting with his teacher and the Head today at school as they are concerned about him and have asked if they can refer him to the Educational Psychologist. Does this mean he will have this as a stigma on his record all the way through school?? What will they do?? what kind of things can they recommend?? I feel like I've really failed him, he is my first child (we have a DD too) and I had 4 years of fertility treatment to get him and I love him so much, but it just seems like I can't get it right to help him. I could even understand it if he hated school, but he doesn't he loves being there and soaks it all up and is doing really well, although he would do much much better if he didn't spend so much time tantrumming in a corner or in the Heads office calming down.

Please can anyone help?? Words of wisdom?? Coping strategies?? anyone been here??

Thanks just for taking the time to read this, it's good to get it off my chest.

Oh WedgiesMum! I'm sorry, I don't have any advice but I wanted to let you know I was listening. Your post is really moving, you clearly love your boy very much. My ds1 is 5 and is sensitive and emotional, but not to the extremes that your boy has. My only thought would be not to think of a referral to an ed psych as a stigma but maybe it will be an opportunity to understand what's going on for your ds atm. I'm sure there will be more wise words coming!

Not that I thought my words were particularly wise! I meant words more wise than mind!

Wedgiesmum. Poor you.

It's not a failure on your part at all. The Ed Psych visit could be really useful. If there is any kind of problem you will know what you're dealing with. If there is no problem you will at least have your mind put at rest.

You say that he doesn't cope well in big groups. Is there any way that class time could be structured so that more time is spent in smaller groups? My ds is due to start school in September and as he can't always tolerate groups the school are arranging for him to be able to leave the room or go to a quiet corner when he starts to feel overwhelmed. The idea is to head off trouble before it starts.

Would the teacher be willing to let him have his own designated seat that no one else is allowed to sit there? This may also give him a kind of comfort zone as well as preventing outbursts when someone else sits in his chair.

Sorry you are having such a tough time of it.

We have been there WM - as you know. Fortunately for us ds1 didn't do this reception year, so didn't have to cope with the limitations of his individuality, and having to conform all the time.

He is still a bit volatile - as you know - but as far as school is concerned it was sorted out. Hmm... Don't want to post here - I'll email you.

WedgiesMum, we've just been through the ed psych process with ds (then nearly 5) - lots of posts on it elsewhere so won't repeat, let me know if you want links. By the way, ds's problem isn't temper, it's more sort of wild silliness, so please feel free to disregard if this doesn't seem to match what you need to know.

Anyway: (a) ed psych referral absolutely not a stigma - gets used as educational tool in all sorts of circumstances including eg how to stimulate a child much brighter than rest; (b) from opinions I've seen here, what use ed psych might be can vary a lot - our process very helpful to me personally, but didn't generate a "toolkit" of ideas to help school manage - I think it sounds as if you need one who would produce that. Will you have a choice on the person? - or is it whoever's attached to the district?

Sorry not been back to this thread sooner. Have had a mixed day with DS and still feeling shaky. I volunteer in school on a Tuesday morning and DS had the worst morning that I've ever witnessed at school (although not his worst performance at school by any means) which culminated in him throwing something and hitting me and being sent to the Head's Office. But when I went to pick him up this afternoon he had had a really good afternoon and was praised for it by his teacher. He never hits at home, or throws stuff (because one of his toys gets put in the bin if it happens, so he doesn't do it) so I was really shocked to see him do it there. We agreed with school yesterday that we would try the throwing away a toy method for throwing at school.

ponygirl & binkie - Thank you for the kind words. I'm trying not to see the Ed Psych as a stigma and hope that they will be able to see how bright he is too. I desperately hope that they will give us some coping mechanisms and maybe some inclass help for him, as school have said they don't have the resources to do it themselves.

coppertop- again, thank you for the kind words. I think I might suggest the chair thing to them, and ask if it is at all possible to let him sit back where he came from if it prevents an outburst surely it doesn't hurt anyone else?? but he is so volatile that he doesn't seem to have a 'space' to feel overwhelmed before he kicks off. They do a fair amount of smaller group work which he usually quite enjoys, if they can get him to do it. He will often flounce off without listening to the task saying he can't do it, then come back and complete it well.

Roisin - have emailed you. THANX!!!!

The worst thing is knowing that he is a loving, caring thoughful boy under all this and knowing that he is frightening other children at school instead of making lots of friends. It feels so personal, his behaviour is so anti social that I feel I should be able to sort it out with him, and I can't

Wedgiesmum, when I read your thread it could of been my ds you were writing about. He has done exactly the same thing in every way. I have been called up the school no end of times and witnessed the bad behaiour. I was worried sick and so upset by his behaviour. Ds started all this at 5 at school he is now 6 (Yr 1).

I'm a year down the line and getting results now.We have seen Edy phys you name we've seen them.
My ds has a control thing and just doesn't like school. School mentioned asphergers, adhd, etc, etc.Truth is he is a bright boy doesn't like big groups either but is finding it hard to conform to the daily routine of school. Usually like a power thing, there not in control at school. Also we have now worked with SENCO- could be the key for you. He has responded to time out for good behaviour- usually creative stuff -he needs STIMUALTION! usually because they are bright and find the routine of school too boring- not enough activity- too much sitting on the carpet for long periods.
Interesting to know does he really like adults company? Usually like to do adults things.

I could go on and on anyway if you need more help/advice feel free to contact me. I really do know what your going through. Yes about the record thing this will be on their school record. Larsxx

Lars - great to hear your 'getting results' now for your ds1.

I'm just doing a bit of anecdotal information gathering on kids (boys) "like this". Is your ds1 small, average, or tall for his age? And is he your eldest?

My ds1 is very similar to WM's ds1, but two years older. It's quite startling to read a description of another child's unusual behaviour, and realise you're not the only one isn't it?

roisin, I feel IT'S NOT JUST ME!
The school led me to believe my ds was the only child that they have ever had like this- which made me feel such a failure.
I cannot believe the same kind of behaviour as when you talk to people they don't really know of any kids who behaves like this.
Anyway my ds is the youngest of two, my dd no problem at all. He is small for his age, very petite build but he isn't the shortest in the class.
Usually wears 4-5 clothes and sometimes 3-4 would fit - gives you an idea.
Larsxx

Lars - you've just blown all my theories about tall, firstborn sons

I know exactly what you mean about the "I'm not the only one!" reaction. It's one of the huge bonuses of mumsnet ... in RL people are mostly reluctant to discuss things so candidly. (Probably because you do get "perfect mums with perfect children - all the result of perfect parenting of course!" Though you do get some of them on here as well, occasionally).

roisin, WE ARE NOT ALONE!!

Yes the 'perfect parent' really annoys me as I've got one next door to me.

Anyway, do tell wedgiesmum feel free to contact me I'm sure we all could share some good advice and experience. An advice group is what you need at times like this- I feel you struggle for help and advice out there- schools not much help for this either as I don't think there are many for just behaviour. Yes there are groups for ADHD , Asphergers, etc but very little for behaviour. I think a group would be very useful and help parents like us to be in contact with other parents or just some advice. larsxx

Ed psychs are not there for stigma- I think it's the most useful way forward. Ed psychs are able to recommend coping strategies and will be able to recommend things like him being given a 1 to 1 helper (which sounds as if it could be useful at the moment- especially as he responds well to adults). it is much better that he copes with additional help, than is not assessed, recieves no help and completely flounders.

My cousin's son was very similar- resulted in exclusion from 2 schools before the age of 6. Now at 11 he has just won a shcolarship to a very good and well known public school. Bright children are often slow to mature emotionally and getting extra help now may help get him through this phase.

Jimjams - I'm fascinated by your phrase "bright children are often slow to mature emotionally" ... this certainly echoes my anecdotal experience. Do you know of any research or articles or books which might touch on this in a scientific manner?

It doesn't seem logical to me, and stating it often gets you into trouble on here as well as in RL, but it is certainly our experience. DS1 is nearly 7, and though he's made a lot of progress, is still quite emotionally and socially immature for his age. Just as an example he generally does not get the concept of lying, and when he comes home from school relating some tall stories from his mates, he simply does not believe me when I suggest it might not be 100% truth! (Ds2 is just 5, and he is very conversant with the concept!)

Lars - feel free to get in touch via 'contact another talker'. It would be great to be in touch with you. There are some things that I am hesitant to post on an open board.

Where are you geographically? I have actually met up with WM a couple of times. (We live quite a long way away, but are close to relatives, so have met up that way!) He son is gorgeous by the way - a real sweetie.

roisin: to support your anecdotal experience, our ed psych's report on ds (the basic thrust of which was "give him a break" ) said the same, almost verbatim: trying to remember exactly, but it was something like "in my experience, [bright children] develop [social skills, etc.] in their own time and because by definition they are part of a very small group indeed they are naturally going to seem atypical in comparison with their peers". But sadly there were no citation footnotes

roisin, yes I will contact you shortly I live in Essex don't know if that's near you at all?

BTW it's interesting what jimjams said about 'bright children are slow to mature' as I was told the same thing by the child phsy- which is typical of ds. It appears my ds is capable of producing good work but tends to choose not to, they feel he doesn't want to grow up and by reading, etc more is expected of him and he realises that- I suppose you could say he wants to remain peterpan for ever. The phsy said it is an end of the younger childhood and reading is a sign your moving on, bright children are good at working adults and for their own reason choose to control that situation. For him he is happy the way things are and doesn't want to move on/develop at this stage. larsxx

Duh - Sorry Lars I didn't say where I was, did I? Opposite corners of the country to you, I'm afraid: Cumbria (SW corner of it).

roisin, i've never been to Cumbria, but heard it's really nice there. One of my neighbour's comes from Cumbria and goes back to visit her parents frequently.
I will email you but having prob's with it at the moment- will get DH to rectify the problem when he gets in from work.
I think I spoke too soon about good results with DS as i was called up the school this afternoon and found him sitting on the table. larsxx

Am accessing this at work trying hard not to cry too much as I work in a very open plan office. the recognition and knowledge that I am not alone is overwhelming and relieving. I will definitely be contacting you lars, and I would really appreciate the chance to talk it over as we go through the Ed Psych process. Roisin has been really helpful and I think we should maybe think about some form of support network. As I live in the middle of you two perhaps you could both come to me () for a meet up????

DS absolutely LOVES adult company, and at school seeks out the older children to play with - and does get frustrated with lots of 'carpet work', bored and irritable. They have already suggested that he may be gifted at music, do you think it might be worth trying him out at music lessons to see if that helps him?? I have been a bit reluctant to do anything about it as I worry if he refuses to cooperate or flies off the handle.He doesn't do anything after school currently I just let him run round tha park to let off energy, or he goes to a childminder on the days I work. He is absolutely no trouble at all there, in fact is a complete angel - her children are older and he worships them.

Emotional immaturity rings all sorts of bells too, his younger sister is much more adept at managing her own feelings, whereas he just doesn't seem able to for sustained periods. Do you think their brains are just so busy absorbing information that it just won't process emotion properly??

Will get back to this later at home. Thank you so much for this have been feeling crushed by it all and haven't known what to do or think.

Oh lars, was posting as you wrote this. Poor you, I dread the phone going at the moment as I assume it's school asking me to come and get him. Hope everything is ok.....

Wedgiesmum, Yes a support network would be great, you never know our own website next

I do understand totally how you feel about outside school groups - how they will behave, like concentration!

My ds has taken an interest in gardening and a golf- but I think golf lessons a no no at the moment due to his temper tantrums - like his way or else. I'm going to stick with his dad teaching him for now.

BTW ds has said I don't like school all you do is sit down all day- needs to be letting off steam . He also said it's boring - understand today he didn't have the SENCO as he usually does creative stuff with her .
larsxx

Bum I was just reading this thread, and thinking with relief that we haven't actually been called into school this school year ..., then dh arrived back with ds1 from after-school tennis. Apparently there's been some 'big trouble', but he's been dealing with him, so haven't yet got the details out of him ... just letting my imagination run riot here.

Oh roisin no! Is everything ok? What happened??

Lars you really made me smile about the golf thing. DS loves to play 'stick-ball' (he's called it that since he was tiny), but there is absolutely no way I could let him loose with a proper teacher, I would be too worried that he would be up on a charge for GBH!! Is he ok now after what happened at school this pm??

Been thinking about what you said about him not liking school too. DS seems to like it, but I haven't really probed it, think I might to see what he says. He didn't have too bad a day today, and managed not to throw anything, he did fall off a swing in the park after school though and really banged hi head

Here's to a better day tomorrow for all of us eh??

I felt really down about this yesterday ... we've had trouble brewing for a couple of weeks: Because the teacher's been busy with SATs [insert all the usual curses] the rest of the class has been run by a supply teacher for every morning for 2 weeks, and all day every day this week. Unfortunately ds1 has not taken to this teacher at all.

I'm feeling bad that I didn't go in and speak to the school last week, as I knew he was desperately unhappy, and we've been having appalling behaviour at home too.

I've hovered at the gate wondering about going in 'for a word' several times in the last fortnight. But I never really knew how to express the problems ...

Anyway, apparently he was in trouble at his tennis lesson, (with an external coach): being rude and disrespectful, standing on a racquet, throwing a racquet ... Afterwards the teacher responsible (his fantastic male yr1 teacher who knows him and us very well) had a word with dh and said that ds1 has been very confrontational and aggressive in school this week too. He suggested that some children get this way because they are stressed about SATs. Dh advised him that the difficulties lie with this relationship with the supply teacher. So no doubt they will be talking about it at school today.

We really have had the worst behaviour form him this fortnight than we've had for over a year. I just hope he adjusts back quickly to his regular teacher. I think she's back properly and full-time on Monday. I hope so.

I'm not blaming this supply teacher - from ds1's accounts it's clear she is aware of the problems, and is doing her best to get him onside, it's just her strategies are not working. He just sees right through her tactics, and they backfire completely. (For example she keeps giving him little tasks to do, to be helpful - and he objects to being 'her slave'. She gave him a merit certificate in assembly for his work, but he said she was just trying to make him think she didn't hate him - but it wouldn't work). I've tried to strike a balance between being supportive of the professional staff, and refusing to listen to anything disrespectful or rude: whilst at the same time giving him an opportunity to sound off a bit if he needed it.

He's nearly 7, he should be able to cope with a different adult, and a different approach. But he still finds change incredibly difficult ... If 'handled' in the right way apparently he's a model pupil, and a joy to teach. Does the fact that 'the wrong approach [for him]' can have disastrous consequences mean that he has some kind of SEN? I don't know.

I fully expect to be invited in after school today, so watch this space!

roisin, sending sympathy. I have seen how change can really throw things off course. I thought I was out of the woodwork behavourwise with our oldest son until he got overexcited in the weeks leading up to his school trip (as you know)....and he nearly missed it.

wm, lars, son age 5/6/7 was just so silly at school and found it really hard to concentrate or work peacefully in groups. Up until the end of year 4 he spent long periods working alone. It was not that he got moody or hostile. Quite the contrary. He had great social skills - a real chatterer. He just got into endless trouble because he would not shut up. He also procrastinated like mad. We were always having to see the teacher about his behaviour. He never had to see an ed psych, but I do know the feeling of dread about those school meetings.

All I can say is that he is much, much better now - people who haven't seen him for a few years are really struck by how much he has changed. I hope that give you some comfort. It just took him a while to grow out of his behaviour pattens, and he got lots of guidance and firm support from his school.

I think the peterpan idea is so true for my son. He loved nursery and is not eager to embrace impending teenage-hood at all.