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Original poster

MMR - thoughts

96 replies

Idoitforthelove · 05/10/2015 19:29

I have two friends (one a GP) who are convinced that this particular vaccine caused, or was a factor in causing, their children's (severe) autism. They believe that Andrew Wakefield's research was valid and that the drugs companies are simply holding the NHS to ransom.

Thoughts?

My one year old is due to have the MMR next week and I don't think I'm going to be able to take her. It feels utterly unnatural to fill her tiny body with three vaccines at the same time, even if I hadn't spoken to my friends about it.

OP posts:

InternationalEspionage · 05/10/2015 22:14

I imagine sparechange was referring to the mumps vaccination in whatever form.

Original poster

Idoitforthelove · 05/10/2015 22:17

I don't believe that there was a mumps vaccine on the NHS vaccination programme prior to the MMR. I could be wrong?

OP posts:

Roonerspism · 05/10/2015 22:20

There is indeed no private vaccination available for mumps in the UK

it is the government's way of trying to force MMR

sparechange · 05/10/2015 22:22

I was replying (and quoting) the poster who said the concerns shouldn't just be about the MMR but 'all vaccines in general'
Which is horseshit, as is her suggestion that the only risk from contracting a disease is the small risk of death. There are many life-changing things that can occur from not being vaccinated.

It sounds like you've made your mind up about the MMR despite the overwhelming scientific evidence to the contary, because of your friends' experience. Which is possibly understandable but still totally irrational.

sparechange · 05/10/2015 22:26

Sorry, I should clarify that he didn't grow up in England...

gamerchick · 05/10/2015 22:36

I don't understand why people go on about the 3 in 1 in a 1 yr old but are happy to shove the 5 in 1 into a tiny baby. It's weird.

My sons autistic and I knew long long before he had the mmr.

Original poster

Idoitforthelove · 05/10/2015 22:36

Ah, I see.
No, I haven't made up my mind at all. The appointment is booked for next thursday. I just feel uneasy about it and wanted to see whether others do / have done too.
I'm incredibly sorry about your DH's problems - of course we are extremely lucky to have vaccinations against these awful diseases. I simply want to know whether a single vaccine might be preferable in this case (if only to reassure me after my friends experiences - valid or not)

OP posts:

Original poster

Idoitforthelove · 05/10/2015 22:37

Thanks gamerchick

OP posts:

DIYandEatCake · 06/10/2015 02:47

I sympathise - my daughter was unwell after her mmr vaccine and it scared the s**t out of me. If she had autism now, I would have been convinced the vaccine caused it I think (she's fine and made a full recovery thankfully). She spent a good 6 weeks either just completely withdrawn (no smiling or communication, no playing, just sitting staring into space) or screaming for hours at a time thrashing about like she was in pain, had a temperature up and down most of that time, and was just completely not herself. I haven't given her the booster yet (it was due last year) as I'm still dithering about it.
I was nervous about my younger son's mmr vaccination but he had it, and had no reaction other than a bit of a temperature and being a bit unsettled. I went ahead as he's a different child, and had reacted a lot better to all previous vaccines too. I did have the mmr done separately to the 12 month boosters though - he had the other two jabs in one visit, then we went back a few weeks later for the mmr. I just felt a bit better that way, and the nurse was happy to do it like that knowing my worries about my daughter.
I sympathise with your predicament, knowing someone who believes their child was damaged by it - we know most children are fine, but it so hard when something makes you doubt it. Good luck and hope all goes well whichever route you go.

SimLondon · 06/10/2015 22:50

I went for separate vaccines, there are some mums on mumsnet who strongly believe that the MMR triggered their child's autism and they were pretty convincing. One of the mothers who posted on here is the parent of two of the original wakefield group - if you read her words you get a very different take on the common view of wakefield - hhmm i'm being distracted by panaroma so can't explain very well - but as far as she was concerned no doctor has wanted to know before or since wakefield and she has two children in severe pain - so all these scientific committees that have discredited wakefield none of them have spoke to her?

Temple Grandin has thrown it out there, that regressive autism may be triggered by vaccines.

Anyway - mumps is super mild most of us that had it didn't notice and at best the vaccine is 70% effective - none of them are 100% not that they spell that out.

What does your GP friend think of the new Men B vaccine?

MrsWembley · 06/10/2015 22:58

Okay, try this one - http://www.iflscience.com/categories/health-and-medicine

claraschu · 06/10/2015 23:02

I know three people (one of them is my sister's friend, so I don't actually know her well, just met her in passing) who's normally developing children had a reaction to the MMR, got ill, lost their speech and are now severely autistic.

I know about all the research, but it is really hard to ignore this kind of personal experience. One of the children was saying quite a few words, and now has no speech at all (she is grown up). The educated, intelligent, parents have no doubt at all that autism was triggered by the vaccine. Maybe it would have been triggered by something else if they had not been vaccinated: who knows.

I delayed our kids' vaccinations because of this, though they are all fully vaccinated now.

Jodiemacdonald31 · 06/10/2015 23:31

I would say go with your gut feeling. If getting the jabs 1 at a time makes you feel better about it then why not.
If I had another child I would delay a little and do them separate, my son is autistic and I whole hearted believe it was the mmr. My close family members say they noticed signs before the jab.... But as every 1 says, dr w was discredited not proved wrong. So what you think is best :)

TheFormidableMrsC · 06/10/2015 23:49

I haven't read the whole thread...but got the gist. I am a parent of an ASD child. I do not believe for one moment that MMR causes autism. My eldest child (now 17) had MMR before there was any controversy about it (that I was aware of). It didn't cross my mind not to ensure she had it. She has suffered no ill effects at all. 13 years later I had my son. He is now 4 1/2. I knew very quickly after he was born that there was something wrong. He was eventually diagnosed with ASD (although high functioning) when he was nearly 4. He still had MMR because his autism symptoms were very obvious way way before that. Again, it wouldn't have occurred to me not to vaccinate him. I know somebody who has an ASD child who swears blind that he was "normal" prior to vaccination. In my own experience, I imagine that the symptoms of autism were simply not recognised at an early stage rather than it being caused by the vaccine. I think because there is such a huge gap between my children that I was able to see the difference. That's just my experience.

As a child, I had measles, mumps and rubella as did my brother. We survived of course, but my brother had some issues later in life due to mumps. I have a friend with a heart transplanted child...children that are not vaccinated are his greatest enemy for want of a better description. I still can't find any valid reason not to vaccinate your child against such horrible illnesses.

staverton · 07/10/2015 00:55

Yes that research has been done, and his results have not been replicated.
Eg. gut.bmj.com/content/51/6/816.full.pdf

Do you think the whole of the medical profession are in cahoots to cover up a link between MMR and autism??

Roonerspism · 07/10/2015 08:19

For goodness sake - that research was 2002 and a single small study.

Wakefield found the actual virus in the guts of the sample autistic children.

bruffin · 07/10/2015 09:02

No he didnt Ronnerspism. Have you read Chadwicks evidence?

PurpleDaisies · 07/10/2015 09:13

Your link isn't working for me bruffin.

Here's another...
leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2007/06/27/andrew-wakefield-and-the-death-of-the-mmr-debacle/

Essentially the measles virus was not detected in the guts of autistic children. The findings of Wakefield were due to lab contamination and false positives.

bruffin · 07/10/2015 09:14

For some reason it does not go to the proper page, but the link is at the top of the right hand side.
The site is a complete transcript of the wakefield gmc procedings.

bruffin · 07/10/2015 09:21

This is a better link to the transcripts
The Nick Chadwick evidence is from the omnibus hearings in the US.

Roonerspism · 07/10/2015 09:48

Why is no one replicating Wakefield's research?

a significant number of parents do not trust the MMR and that in itself is a reason to do it

lljkk · 07/10/2015 10:02

Rooner:
There are lots of experimental parts to what Wakefield was claiming. Posters have already linked to some experiments that were replicated (but came up with different results), which part are you saying hasn't been replicated?

Roonerspism · 07/10/2015 10:08

I'm saying that Wakefield's findings (or not) of the virus in the guts of these autistic children needs to be researched again - and properly.

Let me be clear. I'm not anti-vax (and have paid for the new meningitis vaccine for my kids privately).

But if anyone dares to assert that the MMR has damaged their child, they are summarily dismissed. This simply is not right and I believe further research is justified.

And until then, I will choose the single measles vaccine for my child

MedSchoolRat · 07/10/2015 10:27

Okay, to replicate Wakefield's research fully you have to
have just 12 kids
at least 7 of them need to be involved with a lawsuit for damages
which the lead researcher is being paid to find evidence for
you need to falsify case histories for 4-5 kids, & lab results.

Let's not do that, eh?

As for whether measles virus is found in guts of kids post MMR, specifically kids who also have an autism diagnosis, how's this study for replication? (link not found there) And look at that, they have blinding, case controls, & samples sent to 3 different labs for verification, how clever!

Cel982 · 07/10/2015 10:53

What MedSchoolRat said, basically.

Wakefield wasn't just found to have slightly dodgy methodology. He was completely fraudulent, falsifying results to get a conclusion that would ultimately benefit him financially. His research is worth absolutely nothing. And what he did was so damaging that he is not allowed to be a doctor anymore.

I'm also not really sure how people who distrust the MMR because of Wakefield's 'research' are ok with the single measles vaccine, given that this is the component that he claimed to be causing all the problems.

When 99% of the medical community are saying one thing (and showing you the evidence for it), and 1% are saying something else (with no evidence to show), why are some people so quick to believe the 1%?

I know it's hard not to be affected to some degree by the amount of rumour and mistrust out there about the MMR, but it's so important to look at where the information is coming from.

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