Talk to me about, 'No pudding until you've eaten your mains.'

[ElphabaTheGreen]

I've been trying to avoid this, as current advice seems to suggest that it turns the main course into an ordeal to be got through and doesn't promote good eating habits or a healthy attitude towards food.

However, 3yo DS1's diet is shit. He eats minute portions of beige food, no matter how much choice I give him and bend over backwards to be totally relaxed about the whole thing. Everything I present, is met with, 'That's dis-CUS-tin!' to which I breezily reply, 'That's OK, you don't have to eat it, but I'm not making anything else.' I've never bargained with him about food, never force him to sit at the table, never lose my temper at his repeated food-refusal, give him a choice wherever I can, although this is not always possible. I involve him in food preparation wherever safe, get him to pick out fruit and veg at the supermarket which he loves doing, and let him cut and smell herbs in the garden. However, the only way he'll eat veg is on pizza (on the rare occasion he doesn't pick it off) or sometimes in pesto, so I blitz in anything I can get in there. I have slightly more luck with fruit, but pretty much only bananas, grapes and strawberries.

Tonight, after a day of watching him pick at crap (one spoon of porridge, half a slice of ham, a quarter of a bread roll, accompanying fruit and tomatoes thrown in the floor, pack of Pombears and a cookie devoured entirely), I broke my own rule at dinner when he stropped off to the couch, proclaiming my cheese and green veg pie to be 'howibble' (without tasting it). I said he wouldn't get any ice-cream unless he ate three bites of the pie. After half an hour of fury, he finally gagged down the required amount of pie in a rage and we had our once a week ice cream treat.

This is probably the most veg I have got into him in about forever. If I had no ice-cream to dangle, he just wouldn't have eaten it at all and not been any the worse for it.

Which is the lesser of two evils? Using a desirable food to encourage consumption of the undesirable food in the hope that he'll develop a taste for the undesirable? Or him leading a life nutrient-free until my carefree and relaxed facade crumbles into a heap convinces him that vegetables are actually quite pleasant?

I rarely did a pudding the exception being fruit if they asked for it.

I would not tolerate saying food is disgusting or horrible( learnt at nursery ??) and would concentrate less on the food and more on manners, washing hands before eating, sitting nicely, sharing ,not throwing food etc.
I didn't keep any sweet/junk foods in the house when mine were little, they are not daft and will nag endlessly for them.

He eats pizza, pesto, pasta, strawberries, bananas and grapes, porridge, ham, bread and ice cream.
That's not too bad !

I would forget doing too much cooking atm.
Small plates of ham, cheese ?? bread and butter, fruit .
Would he eat scrambled egg? Toast ?
What does he drink OP?

I think squash is the devils own drink, full of crap and it supresses appetite and is terrible for teeth.

I did my best to avoid all conflict over food.
I did provide pudding but it was never going to fill them up if they hadn't eaten much. Fruit or yoghurt mainly, sometimes a little muffin.

I'm very anti the whole enforced clearing your plate thing how ever you dress it. I think I'll stick with not having pudding after every evening meal. My kids can eat dinner or not. And that's it.
All this dangling more food in front of them as a reason to eat more food, it's a little odd.

Oh yes. Just to clarify. "Eating main" does not mean clearing plate. It means eating nicely until full. Not refusing to try or pushing around the plate.

My eldests is twenty and will eat anything now. We went through phases of not eating brown things, no veg ect I just took it away and have her dessert when we were having it.
I didnt purposely set out not too make a fuss, I just didn't because my mother was militant about eating food and I didn't want to turn meal times in to horrible time like she did.

also he might not be a big eater, I'd cut back on the snacks and see if he eats more at meal times.

Would he eat a picknic tea?

I definitely don't stress a cleared plate being a pre-requisite for pudding. I'd just rather that on the one night a week we do have that treat, it isn't all he eats, particularly after a day of eating bits of nothing.

To whoever asked - he only gets water or milk to drink at home, which he's perfectly happy with. He knows juice or squash (which I also cast a bleary eye at) is just a going out treat at weekends. He also rarely snacks. Maybe the odd bit of fruit if he asks for it, but that's all.

I understand the theory of the picnic tea/giving a few options to pick at theory of encouraging good eating, but in practice it's very difficult. I work full time, and DS2 is just 12 months and is a Velcro-baby non-sleeper so batch cooking is the only way I can cope. The casseroles, pies, soups, pasta bakes etc I just about have the time/energy/hands to stick in the oven when I get home aren't really buffet material and I really don't want to become a short-order cook to cater to DS1's whims. He eats relatively well at nursery thank fuck. He'll usually want a bite to eat when we have our dinner during the week, which he'll invariably refuse unless it's pasta or pizza, so I'll give him a banana and milk when we've finished. He gets three well-balanced meals at nursery so eating is certainly not imperative then. I don't know if this gives him a conflicting message that it's acceptable to opt out of the evening meal at home at weekends, and I'm getting a little worried about when he starts school next year and won't be getting fed quite so much.

I enforce this at times, mainly if they are trying it on.

If it is something they can eat, and especially if they have eaten if before I tell them if they are too full for dinner they are too full for pudding. Very matter of fact. It's not up for discussion, or the attention ends up a negative feedback that becomes part of the problem.

If it is a new food they have to try it, and I think (OP) three mouthfuls was reasonable. If they don't like a new food they can have toast, or bread and butter.

When this becomes a hassle in my house I turned "pudding" into yoghurt or fruit only, although I have shot myself in the foot slightly by making them eat fruit before pudding, so now they expect something else after an apple.
From bitter experience don't do that.

If you are going to say eat X or you won't get any pudding you have to stick to it though.

The other thing I do is ensure portion sizes aren't too large, otherwise they will be full before the end, and they will be overfed trying to get through the meal to get to pudding.

You could always make the beige snacks dull - crackers and breadsticks are less fun than pombears and cookies.

Why not just ditch puddings for a while and explain to him that he either eats more dinner or go hungry till tea/supper whatever
If he knows whatever he eats or not eats he will get pud there's no incentive to eat any dinner at all

I have 3 dc.
Dc1 is a good eater and loves dessert. He always eats his meals and tries to avoid the veg. I tell him to eat his veg, he grumbles but eats it.
Dc2 loves salad and hates desserts. He happily eats most of the dinner then refuses the dessert.
Dc3 loves dessert and is not keen on main meals so I always use the 'eat some more of your main meal then we can eat dessert'.
It works and I'll carry on doing it.
Dessert is usually yoghurt/fruit most days except where I think the meals aren't substantial enough or it's the weekend.

The pie recipe looks amazing, thanks OP.

I had the fussiest ever dd, she lived off chicken nuggets and bread for a year. She would literally throw up on her plate if she was made to try it, or her brother ate a banana next to her.

I used puddings to bribe her in to trying new foods, and when she eventually started eating a restricted but 'normal' diet I would say three more mouthfuls of halve the plate of food and bribe her with a nice pudding to eat it.

She eats fine now, still gags if someone eats a banana to close and doesn't eat meat but that's fine and workable.

My ds on the other hand eats really bloody slow so if we have a pudding we're usually finishing that by the time he's ate his food. He has tried it before in the past because he's seeing us eat his to say he's full up can he can pudding and he gets told no chance.

If we eat a large Sunday dinner for example and are to full up for pudding I just do it later in the afternoon. If it's a normal weekday kids have a yoghurt and fruit if they're still hungry.

The answer is don't give pudding, then he decides if he's hungry and needs to eat I don't think many people let their kids eat ice cream instead when they haven't touched their cabbage. Its not the same as making them eat everything

Im a bit confused now.
So he does eat well at nursery and isn't too bad at breakfast.porridge,roll and ham??)
What time are you giving him tea ?
Is he too tired to wait for a full evening meal ?
Mine always had a simple childrens tea of cheese, ham or mini sausages, sometimes scrambled or boiled egg, toast and butter, cheese on toast, fruit or a fromage frais.( hot food leftovers for lunch)
They would eat this 4.30-5pm at that age, it literally took seconds to make.
Maybe he is too tired to sit down to a hot meal ?

I have nothing useful to add but just wanted to say I'm starving and lazy and that pie looks ace.
If DS doesn't finish in future feel free to send any leftovers my way.

nicestrongtea He eats three meals a day relatively well at nursery, some better than others (beans on toast, always; chicken and veg casserole or similar...only if he's in a benevolent mood), and will sometimes just eat the pudding on offer which is usually fruit or yoghurt, occasionally ice cream or cake. On weekdays, therefore, I don't mind if he has an evening meal with us or not as he's usually had plenty to eat. We don't usually have puddings after dinner during the week either, so there's nothing there to omit/withhold etc. If he does indicate that he's hungry he gets offered a little of what we're having (refused 99% of the time) or a banana and milk.

The problem arises at weekends or on other days when he doesn't happen to be at nursery. I like my Saturday night dessert. I don't want to withhold it. I also don't want to eat it standing up in the kitchen after he's gone to bed so he doesn't know it's there. It's nice to have a once a week treat together as a family. But I also don't want him eating nothing but ice-cream/cake/sponge pudding after a day of eating minute amounts of heavily edited crap, because he thinks I'm an inferior cook to the one at nursery. Sundays, bank holidays, sick days, or general holidays he eats next to nothing unless I bribe him into it as per my OP.

Gosh it all sounds so complicated !

Are you sure he eats much more at nursery ?
The quantities he eats sound average for a toddler but it sounds like he holds out for sweet stuff at nursery as well.
I would cut out cake, sweet stuff as puddings for a while if it seems he holds out for it.
Plain yoghurt and a banana ,cheese and fruit for puddings.

Im afraid I would just eat pudding after he was in bed, tbh that's much more relaxing than eating with small DC anyway and DH and I would often do this and enjoy a bit of adult time, wine and nice pud < rock n roll>

We just don't often have pudding so it isn't an issue. DS was horrifically fussy at 3. DH did sometimes do a bit of food related bribery. Doesn't seem to have made DS into a junk food fiend. He's six now and about normal - he isn't very adventurous but he's totally happy with normal "kids' food".

Wow. We have pudding with every meal. Might be apple and raisins, might be strawberries or watermelon, might be yoghurt or jelly, might be a biscuit. I like something sweet post lunch and assume they do too. Dd eats her food. Ds rarely does. But he often comes back to it after everyone else if I leave it on the table for him. I was a bit food phobic as a child and would never have eaten anything forced and would not want my children to. I often missed playtime at lunch because I refused the shool dinners and wasn't allowed out to play unless I tried it. I never did so just used to sit there obstinately. It resolved itself as an adult.

I want food to be for pleasure not fear.

That said, mine eat a lot more now they rarely have milk in the daytime. (They are 2 and 4 and have just stopped bottles)

I'm wondering if the main meals are a bit too fancy for him? I had this problem - like you, I work most of the week so only cook for the children on Friday evenings and at the weekend. I always used to push the boat out and try to do something extra nice but it never went down well. The lowest point was when I spent an hour slaving away over a Moroccan chicken recipe only to have them both start crying when i dished it up

So I scaled it right back. The following week they had half a salmon fillet (one between them), a handful of new potatoes and lots of peas. They sat down nicely and I didn't hear a peep out of either of them until the whole lot was finished.

I think that young children don't care particularly about food and don't want to have to think about it. They take the (very sensible) view that it's just a necessary fuel stop and they just want to get through it as quickly and efficiently as possible. They don't want exciting, over-flavoured food that draws too much attention to itself. They don't want adults making more of a fuss than is necessary.

So when we eat with the children, we now have either pasta with pesto, sausage and mash, spaghetti bolognaise or roast (on Sundays). They always have either peas or broccoli and lashings of ketchup with everything. DH and I save the more interesting things for when we eat together during the week. There is always pudding, regardless of what they've eaten, but it's always yoghurt, always the same. And I never say no if they ask for fruit - whatever time of day.

We only have "pudding" once a week. If mine are still hungry after their dinner, they can have fruit or plain yogurt. Maybe the occasional ice cream.

If the reason that they are still hungry is that they haven't eaten their dinner, or have eaten the pasta but not the veg, then they have to make a good attempt at that before anything else is on offer.

When they were little, they quite often ate very little dinner but would then "catch up" the next day (although ds1 seemed to eat v little for years). Basically, as long as they were healthy, had plenty of energy and got slowly bigger I saw my job to provide healthy food at fixed intervals and let them decide how much of it to eat. Took me a while to get to this zen-like state with skinny little ds1 though.

I do this, our rule is the veg and meat have to get eaten. The potatoes/ pasta/ rice does not have to be eaten if you aren't hungry.

Pudding is something like yogurt or rice pudding (or for my daughter fruit).

I am very careful with portion control and know how much they eat so know what is reasonable.

My son is nine and i was very proud of him trying lots of new food on holiday recently and it really isn't needed now he is growing up.

We say that if they don't eat most of their main (smallish portions so as not to overload) then they obviously aren't that hungry so don't need a pudding.
They don't have to eat anything but if they don't make a good stab at it then they weren't hungry in the first place and so no pudding.

nicestrongtea Complicated? Perhaps, which is why I'm wondering if he's getting mixed messages (evening meal = optional during the week but not so much at weekends). One thing which kicked off my train of thought on this was one of his nursery nurses asking me if I wanted them to withhold DS1's puddings until he'd eaten a reasonable amount of mains. I said no at the time, but now I'm second guessing myself. There is no sitting down with DH after the DCs are in bed, unfortunately. It's the only time I have for chores, so it would be a case of eating bites of dessert between folding laundry, tidying the explosion in a toy factory house, helping my mother with stuff she needs doing etc. Then it's collapse into bed and pray DS2 keeps his number of wake ups to a minimum. So I'd rather have it when I can sit relatively peacefully with my family.

Treats I don't think they're too fancy. Cauli-broccoli cheese with roasties (might sniff a potato)? Soup with bread (will eat the bread, not the soup)? Pasta with Quorn bolognese (eats the pasta, leaving the sauce scraped off in a neat pile, even if all mixed together with cheese to weld it on)? I try to keep to pretty basic child-friendly stuff. DH and I are veggies so we don't eat plain veg, plain potato, meat/meat substitute. On the rare occasion I do make something like that, DS1 is even quicker to turn his nose up at it as he can clearly see all the horrors I've put before him.

We hardly ever had puddings - sweet things were eaten separate to meals - fruit snacks or a biscuit in the afternoon. I found it helpful not to have a second course to worry abouyt