I HATE people who give in to their kids screaming!

[eastendgirl]

I have a friend who has a 3 year old who always ends up giving in to his screaming, she will say at the beginning "no, no, you cannot have that" and will end up giving him a biscuit, or lots of attention, or a cuddlle. Why cannot some women bear to let their children cry and scream? My friend says that he screams and shouts because it is his character, and that he is not able to stop by himself. I think he does because it is in his interest to do so and he hasn't learnt to control himself because she always butts in, and doing so is fostering dependency. I am seeing her less and less these days because we cannot have a conversation without him butting in. Let them cry I say, so they learn to control themselves and become more independent. Anyone wants to join in?

but why does it bother you?

do you have kids?

tick-you should video that, thats fab

I think children sometimes get into some kind of positive feedback loop when they're in a full-blown paddy. Ds had one at the weekend (rare for him now). Over something SO trivial. There's nothing much you can do when he gets going. There is no comforting him until he is ready. Then he suddenly shoots across the floor and into your arms.

I would not just ignore a tantrum but nor I would positively reinforce it as it doesn't take long to condition a child, you can be calm and deal with it but stick to your guns - personally I would like my DD to grow up knowing that life is about give and take and not that being forceful and agressive is the way to get on but I also respect that it's each to their own and no one can dictate to another how to raise their children

uff, got it out of my system. in a fantasy world my ds would play with her ds, and me and my friend would be able to have a gossip for longer than 5 minutes. It is a pity because she is a nice friend and I like her lots.

Personally I do not subscribe to this positivie/negative reinforcement business. its crude behaviourism and kids are not pigeons or mice running through a maze. the father of behaviourism, Watson, refused to kiss hid toddler son for fear he'd associate men with affection and turn out gay.

begaviorism/feedback etc is about the idea that kids work on a simple reward/punisment equation. that what happens inside is irrelevant, all that matters is behaviour, basically. and I don't buy it. Adults have a complex range of emotions and in particular, basically, IMO, want to fit in and do the right thing by people they love. why should kids?

but agree with not telling others how to parent.

for Watson's son!

My use of the term "positive feedback loop" was not a reference to behaviourism. It was an analogy.

It's good that you have such strong opinions filly - and like I said I would never tell anyone how to parent, but I have my opinions too - just feel very strongly that being firm does not equate to being a cold and distant parent

Feel more sorry for Little Albert...

I knew what you meant becky

Little Albert

Sorry - meant to say - an analogy to physiological positive feedback mechanisms. Too busy thinking about Little Albert.

I can not bear people who give into a screaming child. I have always gone with a piece of advice that my mum gave me. 'Say yes, when you mean yes, and No when you mean No."

If one of mine ask me for something I think very carefully before I answer No. I try not to say No unless I have to but when I do I mean it and I will not budge - even if in my head I am thinking "drats, I could have said yes." I will never change my mind because of a screaming child. It doesnt take them long to work out that mummy says what she means.

Disagree too - what tosh. Good for you if you don't give in - why does it bother you if others do.? There is more than one way to skin a cat.

because it just feeds the next tantrum.... 'mmmm if I scream loud enough and long enough I will get what I want' and screaming hurts my head!!

They don't always get what they want - that would be daft, but they do get some attention.

In my limited exp (3 kids) ignoring, letting them cry just doesn't work. Don't care what the gurus say.

If the OP is seeing her friend less because of said friend's children, I wonder who she is letting have control?

I have occasionally changed my mind about something that one of my children has asked for because I realised that my first response wasn't really that important .. but I would NEVER do so in response to screaming or whinging because I DO BELIEVE it reinforces 'bad' behaviour and brattishness as a communication tool

OMG I remember poor little Albert from A-level psych!

Agree with all that Filly has said. If my child is tantrumming then I try to comfort her. A tantrum is a sign the child is distressed (for whatever reason,)has backed herself into a corner and doesn't have a way out. I offer her one. If she wants to be left alone for a while till the main part of the storm has passed - fine. And then I comfort her. Children are not stupid. They know when they've overstepped otherwise they wouldn't tantrum. What they don't need is to be ignored when their world is falling apart.
I think your friend maybe should think before she says no if saying yes wouldn't be a big deal. She may be automatically saying no when in actual fact she's doesn't mind. I would disagree that she is fostering dependency. She is possibly creating a secure bond with him for when he branches out on his own anyway. As he gets a bit older, speaking to him and explaining that mummy needs to talk to her friend will probably help him to stop interrupting her.
I also don't see it as a weakness to admit to a child that I was wrong.

I am not saying they do not get attention - of course they get attention, cuddles and kisses etc, but like the example charliecat gave, she asked her DD to do something and her DD threw a tantrum because she didnt want to do it. Charliecat stuck to her guns and made her DD do it. If Charliecat had given in, that is just teaching her DD that if she screamed and shouted mummy would back down. Has nothing at all to do with how much attention they get and everything to do with who is in charge.

I think its important to remember that all kids are different and that some have learned that screaming/tantrums etc gets them what they want therefore do it more and more and these are the ones we notice and want to tell parents to ignore, but others have not been so indulged therefore don't do it, so you know that if they do have a strop its something more troubling. There's no 'one size fits all' sadly!

I agree that we shouldn't give in .. to say 'yes' and 'no' when we mean it. But I have to say that strangers on the streets / restaurants / etc don't make it easier for us. They can be so unkind, even mothers of older children. They never empathise with the mother for having to struggle with her children's trantrums. They always flash dirty irritated looks. It's so hard to instill discipline and reason in a child in public places. The pressure for us to keep them quiet and happy is tremendous. As much as I start with the right intentions, I admit I crumble when I catch anyone flashing me a 'can you please shut your child up' look.

Do you all have one child? Different characters play a huge role in how long/much a child will scream for. DS3 has amazing toddler tantrums when he can't have a biscuit, and yes I do walk away, and I ignore him as he hits his head, his tantrums aren't learned (well that's not quite true he has an older severely autistic brother so he's had a good education in how to scream loudly), he was born very willfull, and he has very strong opinions. DS2 is far more laid back, never reallly tantrumed much, ds1 didn't as a toddler he was so passive. Don't underestimate the role of personality in young children.

I have 3. DS1 was the Tantrum Queen and Whinger King. DD is much more devious and DS2 (so far) seems willful yet pliable . So yes, personality does play a huge part. They all still need to know who is in charge though.

I have 9. Some of them have been monster tantrummers. Ds1 was a headbanger.Dd2 was a screamer(so shrill!!). My now 6yo would go completely out of control when she started (still has the occasional lapse).
I wasn't always so understanding of their outbursts. Too many people telling me that I had to be the boss, they need to know who's in charge, rod for your own back and all that stuff. Over the years I've found that consideration for the child works much better. "Working with not doing to". Doesn't mean I don't feel like tearing my hair out at times, though.