Where does good behaviour come from?

[bleary]

DS is just turned one, so we're beginning to think more about how his behaviour is shaped. Is "good behaviour" what's important? Can this be 'taught' to children?
Or is it more about helping them feel right (working on their self-esteem), in the hope that they then behave in ways that please us?
Any thoughts? Particularly from more experienced parents.

Mmmm, interesting. Although certain parenting obviously helps, I think a lot of behaviour depends on a child's character. I have twin DDs who are 5 and have both been treated the same (I hope!) and one is very "good" and hates to upset us, the other couldn't care less about our disapproval and is constantly pushing boundaries that her sister wouldn't even dream about.

Sandy, I would agree with that.

Hi bleary.

I a mere mum2be (so feel free to ignore me ), but I bang on about this book to everyone:

'Families and How To Survive Them' by Robin Skynner and John Cleese.

Makes some very interesting points on this very question.

I found it helped to think as everything as 'just a phase' and hope it would pass, to be replaced by another 'phase'...

Interesting question, bleary.
My dd is 16 months so we are thinking about this too....

Actually I am rather freaked out by the fact that one of her favourite phrases is 'Good girl!' - feel like I must have been indoctrinating her too hard or something....

However my overall belief is that in the long term the most important thing will be imitation, and that if she sees us treat each other with kindness and respect she will grow up like that (so we try our best!) - I'm not going to get too hung up on what is happening at any one moment but go along with Sherbert's line that it's just a phase, if she starts doing things that worry me.

It is quite a number of years before they know right from wrong. My DD (5.5) is now a gestapo in this respect (as are most girls her age I know) always telling people if they are doing something wrong .

DS at 2.4 just today said "sorry" for stepping on my foot -- but think this was learned from darling daughter.

At your DS age praise him when he does something good. Decide what battles you want to fight before you get there (ie is it important that he wears his coat outside or are you willing to let him have his way when he refuses and then learns he gets cold) as you will be entering into the "challenging" phase as he learns about the world and wants to "do it myself".

Will have to ask DS (3). At 6am this morning he established himself on my pillow, pushing me off. Trying to get some more sleep I grabbed another pillow and moved to the other end of the bed. DS woke up DH "Daddy, mummy isn't being good". I have obviously made some gross toddler ettiquette faux pas.

Bleary, I am hardly experienced as my dd is only 3, but what I do have is an independent child who is not naturally compliant whose behaviour is a challenge to shape.

To answer your question, I believe that as parents it is our duty to shape our children's behaviour, I think this should be done through gentle guidance, respecting their feelings and dependence, not abusing our inherent power as their parents - controversially, this means no timeouts, withdrawal of privileges, punishments and certainly no corporal sanctions.

If you make them feel right in themselves, children will eventually behave in acceptable ways because they want us to be happy with them. But it is not a magic bullet. It can take many years!

At 3, dd is much easier hth - though very much still a work-in-progress

My DD is also 3 and I partly agree with Blueshoes - that as parents we are responsible for shaping our childrens behaviour.

But I think it's a fine balance between demonstration of what we would like to see from them in our own actions. As well as setting boudaries that are acceptable to each level of thier development. We set boundaires for DD, and when she displays unacceptable behaviour - such as throwing a toy or putting rubbish on the floor instead of in the bin we give her two chances to put it right, such as please pick it up and apologise, before the third and final request is spoken, which is accompanied by a penalty, such as not watching a favorite programme or not being able to play with a favorite toy etc. After all as an adult, bad behaviour is still punishable, so I feel it's right to show all actions have consequences.

As such, on the other side of the coin, when she is helpful, or even if she has just been a 'good girl' she is always thanked for her contribution and told how helpful or good she has been, and that mummy and daddy are very pleased.

She has her moments like all children. But I am very proud of my daughter and feel that DH and I are, by our own measure, doing a reasonable job of raising a confident, independant and pleasant little girl.

Sorry if I have been a bit preachy - but dont beat yourself up, you'll do what's good for you and I'm sure all will be well.

These thoughts are really helpful, thank you.
Blueshoes, I'm interested in your approach, and instinctively feel it's something I'd like to try. What alternatives to 'timeouts, withdrawal of privileges, punishments' etc do you use for behaviour that you feel is undesirable? Have you read Jesper Juul's book 'Your Competent Child' by the way?

Well personally I think that if you rely on children feeling good about themselves will make them behave in an acceptable way, it could be a way of turning them into spoilt brats who are only bothered about themselves.

A happy child does not mean that he/she will be well behaved. I've seen parents who are so busy boosting their kids self esteem that there is next to no discipline and the 7yo I'm thinking of has been excluded from 3 nursieries and 1 primary school already. They don't believe in time outs, etc either.

I do prefer to try to explain to my 5yo DD that any "bad behaviour" has an effect on people. "How would it make you feel if someone did xyz, etc".

However if that isn't working then I will use time outs, withdrawal of toys, etc.

Children will not behave in acceptable ways because they want their parents to be happy with them. I only have to see the teenagers walking around town behaving badly to know that, they couldn't give a stuff what their parents think of them.

Good behaviour comes from heaven and is allocated on a strictly random basis, ie if you've got more than 3 children, the chances of them all being good at once is next to minimal [bitter experience emoticon]

I think 1) modelling good behaviour yourself in your family and 2) working to build a strong relationship both between yourself and your child, and between your child and other members of your community, are the two most important factors influencing 'good' behaviour.

Bleary, Franny is spot-on.

I cannot say I have read Your Competent Child (though I might now put it in my Amazon shopping basket). I would recommend Alfie Kohn (Unconditional Parenting) for the no punishment-no rewards theory and How to Talk to Kids ... by Faber & Mazlisch for practical advice on what to do/say.

As your ds is one, I guess just be aware of what you can realistically expect of children at their various stages of development eg use distraction/childproofing for toddlers, tantrums are normal and not necessarily naughty behaviour.

I have also been known to get shouty and force dd into clothes/carseat! Though that is not strictly by the book

Ah is it you who recommends "How to Talk...." blueshoes? Harpsichordcarrier rang me yesterday and said "I've finally bought that book you are always banging on about". It turned out to be "How to Talk...." which I have never even read let alone recommended

ah, Franny, I have recommended How to Talk before, as have many other mnetters. If you haven't read it, it is well worthwhile, but warning, you have to close one eye to its rather American style.

To the perennial question of what you do if you don't use punishments or rewards Alfie-style, well, I guess the answer is ...erm, we just talk to our children.

Depends how you define good. A toddler who doesn't have tantrums probably has major problems and probably isn't being brought up properly. Children too scared to express views before their parents because otherwise they'll get thumped or be emotionally withdrawn from might appear good but in my book they're behaviour is not appropriate.

What I've noticed over 22 years of trying to bring up five is how much they reflect your mood. If I'm cross with them because I'm tired they are cross. If I ignore them because I'm busy they aren't happy. If I've been out a lot, they suffer. If they have security and comfort, set times, routines and most of all are listened to and respected then they tend to behave better. Another important thing is enough sleep and a regular bed time, good diet supplemented if needed, fish oil or whatever. I try not to shout at them. I don't swear. When they're talking I look at them. Children love to please so praise helps. Lots of cuddles too and honesty.

My sister keeps contacting me about her twins and the behaviour of one. I think it's her, not them, she's demonised one of them and is now continuously reaffirming that and getting cross with him. If instead she decided he could be good, gave him time alone it would help. But also some rules. Children aren't in charge. Don't let them be. If something is going to happen don't give them a choice, just say this is what is happening. It's when you get into long winded debates that it gets more complicated.

I think try to say 5 positive things to a child for every negative one you say.

Message withdrawn

"A toddler who doesn't have tantrums probably has major problems and probably isn't being brought up properly. Children too scared to express views before their parents because otherwise they'll get thumped or be emotionally withdrawn from might appear good but in my book they're behaviour is not appropriate".

Xenia you make some good points but I have to disagree on the begining of your point above. Yes maybe in some circumstances this is true, but not always. I've always thought that to a certain degree the 'terrible twos' are a bit of a myth and a self-fulfilling prophecy, parents expect it and talk about it long before their child is two. Then the child has a tantrum once, hey presto it gets a reward and so is reinforced, and the cycle starts. It's all about behaviour patterns.

DS had only one mild tantrum at 2, it got no attention whatsoever, and he didn't bother doing it again. I know this is a lot to do with his temprament and character and nothing to do with him being scared to express his views, he just didn't throw tantrums at two, but was silently defiant instead... and believe me he is being brought up 'properly' in a loving supportive home.

At 3 he does now have tantrums if he can't get his own way, 3 year olds have a greater sense of themselves as individuals than 2 year olds (and they aren't really toddlers by 3 are they), so perhaps too many parents bring on tantrums early in toddlers by expecting them and so unconsciously reinforcing them as acceptable behaviour?

Ultimately though children's behaviour has as much to do with their individual characteristics and personality as with any particular parenting style, as siblings and twins demonstrate so well!

hear, hear, Xenia - so glad to hear from an experienced mum.

Pruni, so true about keeping them busy and occupied. Dd's more challenging whiny behaviour arises when she is going stir-crazy at home when it is too cold/wet to go out.

hi bleary, i have a ds who is 71/2yrs and a dd who is 31/2yrs, i don't know much about childrens behaviour as my 2 haven't caused me any problems as yet, all friends and family praise them that they are so well behaved, when i was speaking to a friend who is a nursery teacher she told me i have good kids because "i'm so laid back i'm horizontal" she said nothing seems to faze me and i just get on with it, she says i always praise the kids when they do things (honestly i had never noticed it this much)i have always said to them clever boy/girl and things like No we don't do that, we do this. I don't know if this has shaped them or not but i suppose they know wright from wrong and they aren't bad kids!

Yes, I disagree with Xenia's first point too. My dd (3.5) has never had a tantrum. She's just a very laid back little girl. People are always commenting on it and then add "but then you're always so relaxed with her too". Yesterday at pre-school the teacher said "she's so calm, nothing bothers her, but she'll speak up when she wants something or has something to say".

I'm rather that you think I'm not bringing her up properly and that she has major problems. It's her personality IMO.

Xenia i have to disagree on the tantrum point, my 2 have never had a temper tantrum(i don't shout,swear or thump them), dd did try one day in woolworths as she wanted something, she lay on the floor and screamed, i ignored her and strapped her in the buggy so she did'nt hurt herself and that was the end of it. I have never seen one since and they are 3yrs and 7yrs maybe they are just as layed back as me. I do agree though babies under 2 can't ask for what they want and throw a tantrum thats them just expressing their need for something but they can be ignored.

Yep I too think being a laid back relaxed parent does help, so with you on that one kidstruck. People often comment on how nothing seems to phase me and I'm so patient and calm when interacting with DS and as a teacher too, others say "how are your classes always so calm even when there is so much going on?". It's just personality I guess.

Agree with Xenia that children pick up on adults' moods and react accordingly. This sums it up perfectly and is IMO perfect advice for all parents to remember, no matter how old their children: "If I'm cross with them because I'm tired they are cross. If I ignore them because I'm busy they aren't happy. If I've been out a lot, they suffer. If they have security and comfort, set times, routines and most of all are listened to and respected then they tend to behave better. Another important thing is enough sleep and a regular bed time, good diet supplemented if needed, fish oil or whatever. I try not to shout at them. I don't swear. When they're talking I look at them. Children love to please so praise helps. Lots of cuddles too and honesty"

Agree with Xenia's ideas about children reflecting your mood. Disagree about tantrums. Of the 5 I have had so far ( 8 years to 10 months) only one so far has been a tantrum child. As much as childfen reflect our moods they are also complete packages. Some are chilled, some are not. To a very great extent you get what you are given. Part of the job of parenting is to realise what aspects of you child's behaviour is personality driven, you have to work with what you have.

My tantrum child has just turned three and is beginning to calm down a bit. She is very feisty and energetic, we joke that she is our "feral" child. The description fits her perfectly.