Where does good behaviour come from?

[bleary]

DS is just turned one, so we're beginning to think more about how his behaviour is shaped. Is "good behaviour" what's important? Can this be 'taught' to children?
Or is it more about helping them feel right (working on their self-esteem), in the hope that they then behave in ways that please us?
Any thoughts? Particularly from more experienced parents.

[bleary]

blueshoes - just got hold of Alfie Kohn and i keep wanting to underline every bit and write big 'yes's in the margin. thank you so much for the reference. what a humane book. in return, i do recommend Your Competent Child. Also 'What Mothers Do' by Nancy Stadlen (?).

[beckybraAAARGHstraps]

Not too disastrous. Hated the seen question though. Rambled.

[beckybraAAARGHstraps]

Aha aviatrix. I've just finished the OU child development course and I thought I recognised some of your phrases!

[bleary]

blueshoes and avaiatrixortreat, i do feel instinctively drawn to your approach (and am looking forward to reading the book you mentioned on reward and punishment). so much of this goes back to our own upbringing, doesn't it, and for me it's a very clear feeling (justified or not) that affection was contingent on behaviour. now i am a mother myself it would be impossible for me to withold a display of affection for whatever reason, and especially when ds is not being his usual angelic self.

[blueshoes]

hi nooka, it is only natural that you show approval and/or disapproval but I wouldn't think that is a reward or punishment. It is your instinctive reaction to your children's actions and I would find it rather spooky if parents did not register any feelings!

It is only if approval was conditional on children behaving in a certain way that I am uncomfortable with eg I shall ignore you until you stop tantrumming. Depending on the situation, I have frequently cuddled my dd when she is in that state.

You are right to show your feelings. I am sure your los will grow up to be very empathic adults.

[nooka]

I think the key words there are "harsh and arbitrary" it's perfectly possible to police your boundaries without being either harsh or arbitary. And I think that life with small children (maybe any children - in fact maybe anyone!) does involve battles (even if they are just of wills). Every family is going to find different ways to work things out, and whilst a small number may get it very wrong, most families work out their own (mostly) happy medium, and most use some sort of rules. I must admit I am curious to understand how anyone can interact with anyone, adult or child, without punishments or rewards. When my children are lovely I give them hugs and kisses and praise, when my friends are especially nice, I tell them so, when my team performs well, I say thank you. I smile at drivers who stop to let me cross the road. As far as I am concerned these are all rewards. In similar ways I let people know when I am not happy, and in effect I do consider that things like being snappy with my partner, or not doing that nice thing I was thinking of with the children because they are being awful is a punishment. I'm not sure how you can stay sane or let your children understand your feelings if you never show them if you are pleased or saddened by their behaviour.

[blueshoes]

phew, what a long post!

[blueshoes]

Bleary, you asked "how do you then deal with the conflict that arises when a child brought up in this way goes into a world which by and large works on punishments".

I agree with aviatrix in that the home is not intended to be a microcosm of the world at large ie we don't recreate the same stresses at home so that the child knows what to expect when he finds his way around outside. If anything, it is the opposite: the home being a sanctuary and safe training ground for how to behave outside. We as parents don't have to make it any harder for our children. They know instinctively that the world is less forgiving.

Hence, my dd at 1+ was more obedient at nursery than at home!

I feel that the home should allow children to test boundaries and the full range of challenging behaviours in an environment in which they can feel safe. For this to happen, they should be allowed to express themselves without fear of harsh and arbitrary punishments (eg taking away a fave toy for hitting). But the role of the parent is to guide the child on what is appropriate and inappropriate behaviour, with the aim that the child eventually learns to empathise and internalise acceptable behaviour as a virtue in itself without extrinsic motivation, whether positive (rewards) or negative (timeout, etc).

It was certainly the case with me that when my parents used punishment, my focus was on how unfair it was (being hit by a bigger person) or how to avoid getting caught the next time. The message got lost in my feelings of resentment even though I knew they were right. As parents, we have a natural authority but applying arbitrary measures to enforce compliance detracts from rather than reinforces the message.

I hope I am making sense!

[bleary]

this is all really helpful.

the thing that seems to be to be the difficult bit for me is not chosing the battles or remembering that ds is a mirror of how i'm feeling, but actually remembering that he is his own person and that we will have to find out what works and what doesn't with him. as nooka says, they all express things differently.

going back to something that binkacat says "Well personally I think that if you rely on children feeling good about themselves will make them behave in an acceptable way, it could be a way of turning them into spoilt brats who are only bothered about themselves. " is this really the case? blueshoes mentions an approach that isn't based on rewards and punishments - how do you then deal with the conflict that arises when a child brought up in this way goes into a world which by and large works on punishments?

[izzybiz]

I think alot is down to personality , my Dd is 2 and is the most feisty, wild tantrum throwing, and even mouthy 2 year old ive met!
Ever since the day she was born she has had a temper! The midwife went to get a paedeatrician(sp?) because she was alarmed by Dds scream, and that was at a day old!
2 years on its the same! If you tell her not to do something she will say NO. She will tell me im a naughty mummy, she will throw a wobbler if something doesnt go her way, she even takes herself to the stairs now for time out!!
Im just hoping as she gets older and more understanding of why she cant do certain things she will calm down.

She is great fun though!

[nooka]

I agree with Xenia, but would qualify that with the comment that different children/people express their anger/frustration in different ways, so that one child's strop is a full blow lying on the floor screaming, but another child will express themselves by pulling faces and going away/ sulking or slamming doors. And that this changes over time, so the screamer may become a sulker and vice versa. I think the important thing is that children should feel OK about expressing their emotions, and feel loved even when they have been truly awful. I can recognise both the tiredness/picking up on adult behaviours and also the inherited characteristics in my two (now 6 and 7). ds went through some terrible tantrum phases (although not particularly in his twos), and dd who is otherwise known for being fairly angelic at nursery/school has a fantastic temper at times. I think that it is something to be celebrated as well as mitigated. On behaviour, I think consistency is the key. So chose the rules (and therefore the battles) that matter, and decide with your partner or other carers how you want to approach the behaviour management side of things. But remember that you can't control everything, and your ds's character will ultimately be the most important factor in how you bring him up (for example time-out/punishments do not work for every child, and conversly neither does the quiet chat/reasonable approach).

[kittythescarygoblin]

Agree with Xenia's ideas about children reflecting your mood. Disagree about tantrums. Of the 5 I have had so far ( 8 years to 10 months) only one so far has been a tantrum child. As much as childfen reflect our moods they are also complete packages. Some are chilled, some are not. To a very great extent you get what you are given. Part of the job of parenting is to realise what aspects of you child's behaviour is personality driven, you have to work with what you have.

My tantrum child has just turned three and is beginning to calm down a bit. She is very feisty and energetic, we joke that she is our "feral" child. The description fits her perfectly.

[rosie79]

Yep I too think being a laid back relaxed parent does help, so with you on that one kidstruck. People often comment on how nothing seems to phase me and I'm so patient and calm when interacting with DS and as a teacher too, others say "how are your classes always so calm even when there is so much going on?". It's just personality I guess.

Agree with Xenia that children pick up on adults' moods and react accordingly. This sums it up perfectly and is IMO perfect advice for all parents to remember, no matter how old their children: "If I'm cross with them because I'm tired they are cross. If I ignore them because I'm busy they aren't happy. If I've been out a lot, they suffer. If they have security and comfort, set times, routines and most of all are listened to and respected then they tend to behave better. Another important thing is enough sleep and a regular bed time, good diet supplemented if needed, fish oil or whatever. I try not to shout at them. I don't swear. When they're talking I look at them. Children love to please so praise helps. Lots of cuddles too and honesty"

[Kidstrack]

Xenia i have to disagree on the tantrum point, my 2 have never had a temper tantrum(i don't shout,swear or thump them), dd did try one day in woolworths as she wanted something, she lay on the floor and screamed, i ignored her and strapped her in the buggy so she did'nt hurt herself and that was the end of it. I have never seen one since and they are 3yrs and 7yrs maybe they are just as layed back as me. I do agree though babies under 2 can't ask for what they want and throw a tantrum thats them just expressing their need for something but they can be ignored.

[Surfermummystomb]

Yes, I disagree with Xenia's first point too. My dd (3.5) has never had a tantrum. She's just a very laid back little girl. People are always commenting on it and then add "but then you're always so relaxed with her too". Yesterday at pre-school the teacher said "she's so calm, nothing bothers her, but she'll speak up when she wants something or has something to say".

I'm rather that you think I'm not bringing her up properly and that she has major problems. It's her personality IMO.

[Kidstrack]

hi bleary, i have a ds who is 71/2yrs and a dd who is 31/2yrs, i don't know much about childrens behaviour as my 2 haven't caused me any problems as yet, all friends and family praise them that they are so well behaved, when i was speaking to a friend who is a nursery teacher she told me i have good kids because "i'm so laid back i'm horizontal" she said nothing seems to faze me and i just get on with it, she says i always praise the kids when they do things (honestly i had never noticed it this much)i have always said to them clever boy/girl and things like No we don't do that, we do this. I don't know if this has shaped them or not but i suppose they know wright from wrong and they aren't bad kids!

[blueshoes]

hear, hear, Xenia - so glad to hear from an experienced mum.

Pruni, so true about keeping them busy and occupied. Dd's more challenging whiny behaviour arises when she is going stir-crazy at home when it is too cold/wet to go out.