5 year old about to be expelled - need advice.

[reallyconfused123]

I'm making this post as I'm really feel emotionally drained, really have no idea what to do and would appreciate any advice - i am sorry that it's so long.

The first thing I noticed was at his childminders when he was 3 - as soon as he thought he wasn't being watched he really 'went for' the other child who was 18 months at the time for absolutely no reason. This aggression alarmed me at the time as the other child was so small and it was a 'hard' hit.

Following this, he went to nursery where he consistently could not play with other children, he would hit/be unable to share / play rough etc. He was unresponsive to discipline at this stage - he was both excluded and sent to the headteacher when he was 3 and also referred to therapy. This therapy was not effective (was CAHMS) and there were no strategies offered and no changes to behaviour observed.

Fast forward to reception the problem esculated, I was called into school 4 out of 5 days every single week of the year. The children were awarded a green sticker for a 'full week of staying green' - he did not behave for a full week at school. This included, the continuation of rough play, ripping a boys coat hood off, turning off the lights in a full school assembly, seeing the headteacher at least once a week and just being completely unresponsive to any kind of discipline.

There was a complete lack of support from the school towards myself. I should probably say here, I have tried EVERY form of discipline at home to which he is totally unresponsive. In front of myself/teachers he will literally start laughing even if he is being shouted at. He will roll his eyes/shrug shoulders and seems completely not bothered at all. He is also unresponsive when I tried the naughty step for an extended period of time / taking toys away etc. From therapy i tried to concentrate on positive behaviour much more, but 'stickers and treats' aren't enough for him. He really isn't that bothered about them. He literally does not seem to care about anything.

Anyway, this resulted in me moving him schools as the general attitude of the school before was ' we cant do anything with him'. At his new school, within 6 weeks his class teacher was on the border of crying that she cant cope with him at a school meeting involving about 10 members of staff. He has been hurting other boys (pinching, scratching etc), pushing teachers (hard), pushing boys down the stairs, being completely defiant, wont respond to discipline, consistently calls out in class, laughs when hes being told off etc.

I have Another meeting on tuesday as a follow up to a behavioural analyst from 6 weeks ago - he said if he didnt response to the new discipline system (of ticks/tokens) - he was probably a sociopath. The head also told me we are discussing in this meeting 'how to move forward as he cannot stay with this behaviour'.

I am literally at my wits end. I have absolutely no idea what to do with him. Last night I couldn't stop crying because of this situation that's been for the past 3 years and he literally laughed in my face.

I just don't know what to do. He has also been laughing at any misfortune of someone else if he sees them dropping something/falling over/hurting themselves. He's also told me he 'wouldnt care if i died and wouldnt even come and see me in the graveyard'. i mean it's just strange that a 5 year old would even think like that?

Also, he's given me really sinister smiles. what I mean is for example if he gets in the car after school, i'll question him about how he was feeling that day / why he behaved in that way (e.g scratching someone and leaving a bad bleeding scratch) - he will smile, but it's almost like a sinister smile with strange eyes(?!) and he will say 'oh he was annoying me it was HIS fault'

I also feel like if i talk to my gp about this i'll sound slightly crazy? I mean i know this has been so long, but ?! what kind of professional help am i supposed to seek. and what the hell do i say on tuesday?

i have a simlar problem with my son in the past he tried to souther cate my daughter and some how found a razor at a friends house and cut my daughter he was around 3 then he is now 6 and last week he hit a lad over the head with a log at school (a big log) i now have a appointment with the gp as we think he may have adhd. xx

I agree with others above who have said the system is failing your DS. He clearly doesn't understand what is expected of him and his behaviours reflect this. I was also going to say the ticks aren't enough. A tick is not a reward it's just a mark on a bit of paper. He needs rewards that mean something to him. That he can understand.

The sociopath comment is ridiculous. Most normal 5yos will display several symptoms of adult sociopathy, because they are FIVE. The point is that sociopathic behaviour is abnormal in adults, because most adults develop empathy. At five they don't all have empathy, and that's perfectly normal. Obviously your boy is struggling far beyond how most children struggle :(

The dyspraxia stuff is a good start but I really think you'll find it goes further than this. I'm thinking along the lines of ASD, sensory processing disorders, but I'm definitely not an expert. And yes yes yes to everything StarlightMckenzie is saying. Especially the stuff about whether he understands what he's actually expected to do in each and every situation - that's hard, and confusing, those examples given are extremely typical of schools and yet we encounter thousands of conflicting situations every day where different behaviours are expected, if he's not able to read the signs that other children are getting about what he's supposed to do, of course he's going to get it wrong, and then get frustrated and lash out. There will be a way to communicate these things to him but it's going to take the right person to find it.

Lives in the Balance is absolutely brilliant and revolutionary, it works with love bombing, you should look at it. It sounds like the simple reward/punishment techniques aren't working, in the main because he has to work out what to do to gain the reward/avoid the sanction, and he's not doing that. So you need to find a different way to communicate with him even if you think that he's been told/explained to in plain language - it might not be plain enough to him.

For sure he needs a different teacher as he is too much for her. He needs someone who is self-assured and capable.

I would ask for an EHCP. You may find that the LEA can suggest a better placement for your son.
Also ask for a referal to a community Pead.

Hopefully you,will get to the bottom of his difficulties and will both get the support you need.

I would ask for an EHCP

Definitely.

You can download a letter on the IPSEA website and request an assessment without supplying a great deal of information. I would do that tomorrow.

An assessment would involve a number of different professionals meeting you and observing him. Their reports would then be looked at together by a panel of experts in SEN and they would decide how his needs should be met. This can only be a helpful process for you at the moment.

Nothing to add but wanted to post my support, you are doing a fantastic job of trying to help your boy, you are clearly a wonderful mum to him.

Have you tried contacting Action for Children? They provided a family support worker for my son. Totally keyed into what was upsetting him, created a plan, thought about different health issues and potential diagnoses and literally changed his behaviour by the end of 6 interventions. Changed my life too xxx

Your ds sounds very much like my ds at 5. He was diagnosed with autism and extreme challenging behaviour at 3. He had a statement of SEN before he started nursery and so had 1 to 1 support from the off. There were still incidents occasionally, ds hated other children and would hurt anyone who came too close or if they annoyed him from a distance he'd throw at them.
What worked for ds was constant rewards, rewarded for having something in his hand and not throwing it, rewarded for not hurting someone passing by, rewarded for screwing up his books and not tearing them to pieces etc etc.
The rewards were what worked at the time, he had anything from wotsits, to blu tac to stickers. There were no punishments, the lack of a reward was the punishment because if ds felt he had been punished he would pull out all the stops to "even up the score"
Now he's 19 and quite possibly the most pleasant, well behaved teen you could wish to meet. Don't get me wrong there have been plenty of times I've been pushed to my limits but we've got there.
My advice would be to request an EHCP and get him back into a state school and ask for a referral to a community paed and request a multi disciplinary assessment.

Good idea to talk to your GP once again. You are certainly not crazy. Your DS needs the right help, which he hasn’t been given. He needs a proper investigation of this potential dyspraxia by someone who is really qualified to know, and who is also qualified to recognised ADD, autism, and all the other developmental issues that can cause this kind of behaviour. Sounds like you need a developmental paediatritian, possibly a child psychiatrist. Your DS may also need to see a speech and language therapist (because his communication is odd) and/or an occupational therapist.

A new GP may do a better job of referring you to the right people. Don’t be afraid to keep on asking.

I did a kind of “love bombing” with my DS, it wasn’t called exactly that but it’s a version of much the same thing - descriptive commenting plus child-led play. It didn’t fix his autism but it did improve our relationship a lot!

Talk to your gp. If a professional labelled him a sociopath then as hard as that is don't fight it but find help. A 5 year old can be a sociopath and there is nhs support if you are in the UK. Demand help, be persistent and if your gp is dismissive, contact another, and another until you start getting the help he needs. Contact London Maudsley hospital, they might be able to . Best of luck.

By the way, when you get angry or cry and your child smiles or laughs in your face, it doesn’t mean he doesn’t care or that he is feeling happy inside. It could mean that he desperately wants to be happy and he wants you to be happy as well so he’s laughing. He may have no other idea about how to make someone happy

thank you so much everyone for your replies.

one problem I'm having in particular is what to say to his class teacher…

They are meant to have been following the behaviour plan from the behavioural analyst but they have not been doing this.

it is the ignoring bad behaviour (unless physical harm or physical damage to property) and being constantly rewarded/reinforced for good behaviour from the ta.

He was sent to the deputy head 3x yesterday and the reasons for being sent out of the class (which is ultimately what my son wants hasn't been for physical harm/damage and therefore shouldnt have happened)

His usual T.A has been away which has caused disruption by having someone else. but the fundamenetal parts of the behavioural plan the teacher doesnt seem to have been on board from the very first meeting where they were emotional and flustered.

i understand that it's difficult for her - but being like this is incredibly unhelpful for the situation and i really dont know how to address this

being sent out of the class (which is ultimately what my son wants

This could be really important for working out the reason behind your DS's behaviour. Is anybody trying to work out why he wants to leave the classroom and whether there is a way of helping him to feel comfortable in that environment?

Using behaviour management techniques of any sort to try to make a child remain in and function effectively in an environment they find unpleasant or uncomfortable will always be setting them up to fail. Someone needs to work on making the classroom more manageable for him so he isn't looking for ways to get out of it all the time.

I'm sorry I haven't read all the read all the replies here, but just wanted to say if he has dyspraxia then really push for an OT referral as a lot of his behaviour could be linked to his frustration relating to that. Also, ask to see an OT who works in sensory integration. He may well have a sensory processing disorder, which can present with very physical behaviour and is often linked to disorders such as dyspraxia, ADHD and ASD. Some 1:1 sensory integration therapy could really help, but unfortunately it's not available in all areas and many parents end up going private.

Good luck - it sounds tough.

I agree with all above who have said request EHCP. Start getting your evidence together about the journey so far. I'm not 100% sure about the new system but certainly under the old one YOU as the parent could request statutory assessment just by writing a letter to the county SEN team.

You may need to start thinking about him needing some kind of specialist placement, at least to start with.

I can't really advise on a programme of action but I wanted to say that although it must be very difficult at the moment it might and hopefully will change for the better. My Mother was a teacher who had a colleague whose little boy at 3 was asked to leave 3 nurseries! His behaviour was destructive and often physically harmful to others. In his case the parents were very very liberal and did not believe in sanctions or even telling him 'no' but who knows whether it was their approach as ive seen people behave similarly and the result isn't badly behaved children. He is now 10 and apparently really calm, loving and causes his parents no more hassle than your average child. He is and was very clever so that may have been something to do with it but essentially he's just grown out of 'it'.

My own son is 7.5 and has a very mature outlook, he always has done and as a result does not respond at all to reward charts. He is really well behaved at school and bright so he never gets in trouble but he gots cross quite quickly in a domestic setting and the only thing I've found to work is 'love bombing' of sorts. I notice if I've taken the time to talk to him about his day, his interests, tickle him, tell him he's beautiful, hold his hand still occasionally, a warmth develops between us again that limits the friction between us as we are more understanding of each other. I have a 3 year old DD and at that age the above is how I naturally relate to her but as they grow older you can become more detached. Of course that is natural in a way for their growing independence but if there is friction between you I think it does help to revert a bit.

The private school setting may not be the best as they do seem to want a certain kind of child. My youngest nephew is developmentally delayed by a year and attends a private school, he is 5 and his behaviour is sometimes erratic and more irrational than my 3 year old. For instance, i'd tidied up a monopoly game that the older children had been playing, sorted out all the notes and put the cards away, he saw me do all this but decided to throw the whole thing in the air so I had to start all over again. He didn't think it was funny he just wanted to see what happened when he did it. Anyway, he was recently sent home from his private school for blowing a raspberry at the teacher and my SIL had to go and collect him at 2 in the afternoon. This reaction seemed completely OTT to me- they just aren't prepared to be helpful with his delays. He is also being bullied, the school are aware of this but suggest its because he's not 'sporty'?? The only day he doesn't get bullied is when his older brother shares the playground with him. His brother is sporty and popular so the bullies don't go near my nephew on this day. When my SIL recalls all this I can't understand why she is paying for this 'education'.