5 year old about to be expelled - need advice.

[reallyconfused123]

I'm making this post as I'm really feel emotionally drained, really have no idea what to do and would appreciate any advice - i am sorry that it's so long.

The first thing I noticed was at his childminders when he was 3 - as soon as he thought he wasn't being watched he really 'went for' the other child who was 18 months at the time for absolutely no reason. This aggression alarmed me at the time as the other child was so small and it was a 'hard' hit.

Following this, he went to nursery where he consistently could not play with other children, he would hit/be unable to share / play rough etc. He was unresponsive to discipline at this stage - he was both excluded and sent to the headteacher when he was 3 and also referred to therapy. This therapy was not effective (was CAHMS) and there were no strategies offered and no changes to behaviour observed.

Fast forward to reception the problem esculated, I was called into school 4 out of 5 days every single week of the year. The children were awarded a green sticker for a 'full week of staying green' - he did not behave for a full week at school. This included, the continuation of rough play, ripping a boys coat hood off, turning off the lights in a full school assembly, seeing the headteacher at least once a week and just being completely unresponsive to any kind of discipline.

There was a complete lack of support from the school towards myself. I should probably say here, I have tried EVERY form of discipline at home to which he is totally unresponsive. In front of myself/teachers he will literally start laughing even if he is being shouted at. He will roll his eyes/shrug shoulders and seems completely not bothered at all. He is also unresponsive when I tried the naughty step for an extended period of time / taking toys away etc. From therapy i tried to concentrate on positive behaviour much more, but 'stickers and treats' aren't enough for him. He really isn't that bothered about them. He literally does not seem to care about anything.

Anyway, this resulted in me moving him schools as the general attitude of the school before was ' we cant do anything with him'. At his new school, within 6 weeks his class teacher was on the border of crying that she cant cope with him at a school meeting involving about 10 members of staff. He has been hurting other boys (pinching, scratching etc), pushing teachers (hard), pushing boys down the stairs, being completely defiant, wont respond to discipline, consistently calls out in class, laughs when hes being told off etc.

I have Another meeting on tuesday as a follow up to a behavioural analyst from 6 weeks ago - he said if he didnt response to the new discipline system (of ticks/tokens) - he was probably a sociopath. The head also told me we are discussing in this meeting 'how to move forward as he cannot stay with this behaviour'.

I am literally at my wits end. I have absolutely no idea what to do with him. Last night I couldn't stop crying because of this situation that's been for the past 3 years and he literally laughed in my face.

I just don't know what to do. He has also been laughing at any misfortune of someone else if he sees them dropping something/falling over/hurting themselves. He's also told me he 'wouldnt care if i died and wouldnt even come and see me in the graveyard'. i mean it's just strange that a 5 year old would even think like that?

Also, he's given me really sinister smiles. what I mean is for example if he gets in the car after school, i'll question him about how he was feeling that day / why he behaved in that way (e.g scratching someone and leaving a bad bleeding scratch) - he will smile, but it's almost like a sinister smile with strange eyes(?!) and he will say 'oh he was annoying me it was HIS fault'

I also feel like if i talk to my gp about this i'll sound slightly crazy? I mean i know this has been so long, but ?! what kind of professional help am i supposed to seek. and what the hell do i say on tuesday?

Great post gymboywalton

You say he has an LSA? Is he also supervised in the playground? Is there a provision for him to have a playtime in a controlled environment?

We have a lunchtime club for children with behavioural difficulties. The staff set up play and craft activities and outdoor play in a very controlled environment where there is a very high pupil to staff ratio. The children are allowed to choose a friend to go with them; as the activities are more exciting than a normal playtime the other pupils are often very keen to go. The other advantage of this is gives other children in the class an opportunity to potentially see a nicer side of a child who may always be labelled as the "naughty" child by his peers.

One of my pupils who has challenging behaviour attends this and it works wonders for him. He is able to have a lovely playtime where he is praised and other children are protected from his aggression. There are talk sessions and social stories included where he can talk through his feelings and where making good choices for his behaviour is reinforced agian and again and again.

I agree with those who say that dyspraxia may not be the only issue. The word sociopath does not sound helpful but if that is the diagnosis then the specialists involved with your son need to suggest what might work for a child with such a personality. Medication? Behavioural therapy? They cant just say he's a sociopath and write him off! There must be some form of intervention which is known to work with children with these issues.

Keep pushing for a further diagnosis and I think a paediatric psychiatrist might be the next port of call.

How is his sleeping? Does he snore, rasp, snort, gasp, stop breathing for any period of time? Chronic sleep deprivation could be responsible for the behaviours you've listed OP.

Definitely go to the GP and ask again for a hearing test (my GP didn't pick up on my DS glue ear for months).

Ask the GP to refer to the Developmental Paediatrician to investigate EVERYTHING.

To cover all bases, get a referral to a paediatric ENT so his ears and tonsils can be thoroughly checked. Even moderately enlarged tonsils, such as Grade 2, can have a terrible impact on sleep and therefore daytime behaviour.

So sorry you are both going through this and I wish you good luck.

Sorry but if the private school is not a specialist one it doesn't sound as if it can cope.
I would start looking for a good state school.
Go to the GP and request a referral to a different Paediatrician - calling a child a "control freak" is unhelpful and not a diagnosis.

Sociopath is not a valid NHS diagnostic criteria - the correct term is Anitcoial Personality Disorder and whilst signs will be seen in young children, it cannot be diagnosed until after they are at least 18.
Not being motivated by ticks is not abnormal. If I gave you pieces of paper every time you did some task you don't want to do, would you be motivated? However if you knew those pieces of paper could be exchanged for things you do want, then your motivation would probably change (money).

What training does the TA have? What experience of children with special needs does the school have? What outside agencies have they brought in to help/advise them?

Just because a school says it deals well with SEN children (which our son's aggression means he is) does not always mean they do.

It doesn't sound like the right school for him. Many private schools can't cope with the more feisty children, they generally get their results from the quieter children who get their heads down and work. I'd look at everything, diet, sleep, the classroom environment, is he being stretched enough at school or is he bored? You say he's bright. If he's not getting enough out of his school work he's going to be looking at other ways to get his kicks. The teacher clearly not liking him is going to make things worse. He will know that. Being labelled at his age is certainly not helpful. You can do what you can at home, but the school also need to think outside the box with regard to how they help him at school. If they can't do that you need to find somewhere better for him or things will never change.

So is the behaviour analyst an ABA specialist and is that what they're trying with your DS?
Do they think he may be on the autistic spectrum?
I'd definitely seek some opinions from the SN boards. There are parents for whom ABA has been an absolute lifesaver and others for whom it hasn't been right at all.
My DS has autistic traits and attachment difficulties and age 6 was way off the rails at school. Lots of strategies just bounced off the sides because he couldn't rather than wouldn't comply. 2 years on, touch wood, he is in a very different place and most importantly is as kind, thoughtful and eager to get it right as any 8 year old boy.

Did his previous school ask for a statement of special educational needs, now an EHC Plan?

I am so sorry that you are going through this.

I suggest that you ask your GP to refer your son to a community paediatrian at your local child development centre. A child development centre caters for children with special needs, not just behavioural difficulties. The community paediatrian would look at your child's fine motor skills, speech, play skills and recommend various tests/ interventions to try and help your child. I feel its important to see your child as a child rather than label him at five year old.

Im so sorry you're going through this and your little boy, poor wee mite he sounds very uncomfortable. I'm certainly no expert but I've had my fair share of difficult times with my kids and so I wanted to ask, have you tried a strategy of constant attention?
I have heard it called 'lovebombing' but I think it's more than that. Keeping him close by you, as if he were your newborn again. Loads of quiet time, cuddles, talking about anything, or just not talking. Holding each other. Can you afford the time to take him back to being your baby for a while? Re-ignite the love?

Also, I don't think sitting still on a carpet is 'good' or even natural behaviour for a small child. They are made to run and jump. I took my ds out of nursery because of the staffs expectation for my very energetic little boy to sit still.

I hope things can work out for you both.

thank you so much for all of your responses im already feeling much more positive about the situation :)

the t.a is with him all day including playtimes yes

yes the behavioural analyst is an aba specialist and thats the programme that has been used

and as much as i've read about this love bombing i mean its the only strategy i havent tried so that will be next as well as seeking a referal for a child psychiatrist :)

Find out from Parent Partnership for your county/borough what would happen next if he was permanently excluded. It may be that he would be put into a much more appropriate short-term provision until he was fully assessed and his needs met.

Seconding Polter's list and the advice that you've had, so far, particularly that if he's displaying signs of dyspraxia, there's bound to be a lot more going on, neurologically.

ABA consultants can be fab, but not all of them have the necessary tricks up their sleeve for working with children who are bright, higher functioning and particularly demand avoidant. The fact that this one wrote your DS off as probably a sociopath tells me that they were probably lacking the skills necessary for your DS, but would rather blame him than admit that. Seriously unprofessional.

My eldest never had any truck with sticker charts and whatnot. Even in nursery, as soon as there was a sticker reward, it became clear to him that it was for something that you especially wanted him to do and not that he ever wanted to do. He has a diagnosis of ADHD and atypical autism, has a whole raft of sensory processing difficulties recognised by an OT, along with some associated motor planning issues and he's recognised as having a profile of Pathological Demand Avoidance (which is well worth you reading about - check out www.pdasociety.org.uk )

Most mainstream schools would struggle with my DS. Particularly because he has a real need to get up and wander and sitting in one position for any lengthy period of time is painful for him. he can be absolutely lovely, one to one, but as soon as he's subjected to a sensory assault (rain on his face, lots of people, noise) can become quite bouncy and even angry. We have him completely out of mainstream, now, as it was too much for him, even with very accommodating and understanding staff. He spent most of his time hiding from everyone.

I was going to say, positive reinforcement for every tiny thing does nicely and ignore the bad behaviour but I accept that that is incredibly difficult for a school to do if he is hurting others. Also maybe ask for an assessment for ODD (Oppositional Defiance Disorder) or PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance) my brother has this it took a long time to get a diagnoses, but getting the diagnoses meant that we could really understand him a lot better and learn how to react. Good luck :)

OMG OP, Have only read your thread but I want to come right now to your house and give you AND your little boy a bug cuddle.

How DARE these people give up on him in the way your OP suggests. How DARE they? He's a teeny boy ffs!!!!

I cannot tell you how outraged I am to read your post. Please have confidence in yourself and your ability to sort this out for you all. You can't abandon him in the way they have and nor would you want to. I imagine he has the making of a fine lad if the people who are PAID to help bloody well do their job (or as is most common, you spend unimaginable amounts of time figuring it all out).

I'll read the rest of the thread but just want to say, please don't feel hopeless. There is hope.

Could you please check EXACTLY what this behavioural Analyst's qualifications are. Sounds to me like a self-titled bigot with no training at all. BAs are not qualified to diagnose Dyspraxia and DEFINATELY not qualified to diagnose sociopath tendencies.

My sincere advice regarding this character is to write directly to him to 'clarify' that you heard correctly that he stated that if your child doesn't respond to strategies HE comes up with then your child is probably a sociopath. Also clarify that he has diagnosed Dyspraxia. Then ask at the end for his qualifications and experience with such children. (You are entitled to this under the FOI act, though they might pretend you aren't, you can still probably get it).

Regardless of his response, then tell him in words you ultimately wouldn't mind a judge one day seeing, to fuck off.

'The behavioural analyst is incredibly well respected and one of the top people in the country just to add (also nauseatingly expensive)'

Dear God. Please PM me his name. I'll do some investigating. Sadly the older and best known names got there before the ethical guidelines and bloody rigorous exams were put in place. He might not even be qualified but just 'known' and therefore passes off as someone good. Many top BAs aren't BCBA certified.

I feel like Starlight does.

You don't write a child off as a sociopath at five years of age.

For a start, rewards are counter productive for some children. They simply can't cope with the demand that the possibility of a reward places on them. My DD2 is a bit like this and she often responds with sabotage in order to make the reward disappear. The more she wants the reward, the more likely she is to sabotage it.

Sanctions can also be really counter-productive, especially if they reinforce a child's negative view of themselves.

I have a friend whose child began to be labelled in this appalling way when he was struggling through nursery and primary school. He was then diagnosed with Autism and given a place in a specialist unit within a mainstream school for children with Autism. Everything improved dramatically for him after that and he is doing really well now.

Apart from making sure your DS gets a full neurodevelopmental assessment which would identify Autism, possibly from the specialist team at Great Ormond Street if your local CAMHS aren't helping, I don't know what else to suggest. Just don't let anyone write him off.

You're clearly putting in a lot of time and effort to get him the help he needs and I am sure that you will find the right intervention at some point.

'a child not responding to numerous attempts to calm him would be "labelled" in such a way. Sad but I can see the logic if all attempts are being unsuccessful.'

Whaaat? Personally I think the sociopath is more likely to be someone who would write off a child at age 5 simply because they don't conform to your preferred way of working.

If attempts are being unsuccessful you research other things, and keep going, and keep going until you have engaged the child and motivated them to change their behaviours to ones that will enable them to get the most out of life, or at least survive it.

To add to my previous posts about bloody vintage unethical so called BAs, I have found that the expensive ones are damn lazy as they can get their money with far less challenging children and prefer the 2yr olds where the most they have to do is teach imitation skills. This isn't the case for all, but definitely some I have being unlucky to meet in my journey.

'i've also been to a pediatric consultant who said he was a control freak'

Good grief. OP, please don't pay any attention to this shameful set of professionals you seem to have landed yourself.

'but what other option is there?'

And independent developmental paediatrician.

'a tick for behaving every 10 minutes throughout the day'

Does he know what 'behaving' means in every variable context and situation?

In PE when they are told to find a space, standing next to a child is not behaving. In the dinner queue, NOT standing next to a child is not behaving.

Sitting quietly at story time is behaving. Sitting quietly during singing time is not behaving.

Running around the playground is behaving at playtime, but it isn't behaving when crossing the playground for assembly.

I could not agree more with StarlightMcKenzie

There are times when the NHS is bloody amazing. My son was under the community paediatrian for five years. Other than glue ear he never was given a diagnosis. However the paediatrian was great at getting him the help that he needed.

The idea of describing a small child as a "control freak" or "sociopath" is shocking. I feel that our community paediatrian's appriopiate of saying she didn't know, but had ideas to try was far better.

Just an optimistic anecdotal tale: a close relative's DS was sent to a pupil referral unit as his primary school couldn't deal with his violent and disruptive behaviour at 9. We thought it was the end of mainstream school, two years there and he was a different boy and is back in mainstream. They diagnosed ADHD and worked really hard sorting his behaviour. Long story short - I wouldn't object to the PRU although clearly there are other things to try first, he's got a lot of growing up to do, all these things can be changed, don't get alarmed.

All behaviour is communication. Your DS is trying to communicate with the adults around him. The problem is that everybody is insisting that he uses their language instead of trying to learn his.

I know CAMHS didn't help the first time. We have encountered some bloody awful CAMHS practitioners over the years but we have also come across some very good ones. Try writing to them explaining exactly what has been happening and how your child is becoming labelled. They should be appalled enough to get someone good on the case.

The very best CAMHS psychologist we came across recognised AS in my 12YO DD1 within seconds of meeting her although nobody had ever considered the possibility of it before. He was a life saver - possibly quite literally in her case. He has since left CAMHS and I discovered that he is part of a private psychology practice. I would be happy to PM you his details if you would like them.