dealing with new neighbour's sticky-fingered kids (long-HELP!)

[majorstress]

My dds are 3.5 y and 15 m and we are at work/nursery all day, getting home about 5:30. We are greeted daily with 2 cute girls age 4 and 7 on the doorstep who are bored silly and desperate to play. I won't let dd1 play out in street with them, and at first I was so glad she was making local friends I welcomed them in. Offers to go into their house are rare and we have some disquiet anyway about the family. Maybe I'm just incompetent mum-wise but I now find I can't cope with them all, but feel rotten saying no go away (and they are VERY persistent). I find they don't actually play well together, dd1 is tired and wants to watch tv or play her fav, hide'n'seek. They won't, just want to throw the toys around or hug, or worse, pick up the poor baby who is not keen. So they mainly pester me, while dd1 sulks and dd2 does something hazardous behind my back. I end up doing puzzles with neighbors kid, which I have never had time to do with mine! DD2 is tired and demanding to be fed, and I have to get the dinner ready for everyone else too. New garden is full of rubble, glass and a pond in process of demolition, so can't chuck em out there. The latest is the 7 year old keeps asking to have everything we own as a gift, which generous dd1 hands over, including peeling the iron-on badges off her shirt, and yesterday the requests included my crystal ornaments from the display case! And some toys are missing, though probably just thrown somewhere far far away. I so want us to fit in, but I am the one who needs someone to take MY kids for a few minutes, not more kids to handle!!!

That sounds like a very difficult situation, majorstress. Where is their mother while they are at your house? Is she at home? Is she just happy for you to provide free childcare? I agree it is not fair on you to be doing puzzles with other kids every day when we all know how hard it is to fit that kind of playing in with our own. Could you just sit them down, or speak to their mother, and say that you would love to have them over every Monday (say) for tea, but that on other days your family has quiet time after nursery as you have been at work all day. Then when they pester, you just plaster on a big smile and say "but it isn't Monday, we'll have fun on Monday!". (Although I have to say, unless I adored the kids even that would be a bit much for me). That way your dds are still being friendly with their neighbours but not overpowered by them. Have you explained to the 7 year old that your dd is too little to understand what she may or may not give as a gift? Sounds like that situation could get out of hand so I would definitely say something to her.

Also, you could suggest to their mother that you have a swap arrangement (unless you would not be happy leaving your kids with her) Even if she just had dd1 over for tea once a week, it would give you time with dd2. Maybe just the suggestion of it will give her the hint that you are not willing to keep looking after her kids all the time.

"Those who ask don't get" is a good rule for this child.

majorstress, DO NOT feel rotten, the mother is taking advantage and they are obviously very having kids - if yours are not even really enjoying them being there then just say no - it sounds as if you wouldn't want your dd to go to their house in exchange anyway and having FOUR kids in the house after work when you don't even want 2 of them there would drive me MAD!

Making new friends in the neighbourhood is all very well but this is such a one-way street and no help to you at all. Just start saying "not today, sorry" when they are on your doorstep and keep saying it until they stop coming.

agree with janh,just say no sorry they can't come in today.You don't have to give a reason,it's your house,your life.
They need to be told straight,they are too young to realise they are not welcome.Their mother should be supervising them,she's taking the piss I'm afraid.

Yes, completely agree, just be firm, say no and don't have any scruples. It's not fair on you or your children otherwise.

We have a small group of brothers and sisters (ages 5-7 including twins) who went through a stage of trying to invite themselves in. Their mother has 8 children and leaves them to roam the streets by themselves. I felt sorry for them (it's hard not to) but in the end I just had to be firm and say no. You could either compromise and only let them in when it suits you or just say no and put an end to it. From the sounds of things your dd might thank you for saying no to them.

agree with coppertop on this one. Good Luck!

also agree with coppertop, start off as you mean to go on! I didn't and regret it every day - house is always full of kids, not just my own three, demanding food and drinks and, as one cheeky little mite asked this morning "is it alright if go on your laptop"!! NNOOO it not bloody alright! Imagine these kids houses are lovely, clean and tidy, fridges/cupboards full of unwanted food and mums are out shopping/having facials whilst I childmind their kids for free!!!
Do yourself a favour and be firm.

We went through this, except we had 6 of the little blighters in our house aged from 10 down to 4. In the end I just got hard and said we were busy, I think the last straw was when one of them announced "our mam says we can play at your house all day on Saturday!". We were living in a weird area and I was very conscious of seeming "snobby" but in the end....

My next door neighbours dd 11 banged on my door for 10 MINUTES on good friday at 10am, kept knocking till I answered, even banged on my window as she wasnt getting response at the door. I was getting the kids bathed and knew if I let her in I would have her for the rest of the day. So I answered and said I was getting the kids bathed and she said "When shall I come bcak then" I said "give me half and hour" when she came back half an hour later I was giving the kids a snack and I didnt offer her one. So she asked for a drink, I begrudged her that.
Meanwhile her mum and dad are next door asleep.....
At 1.35 my mum came to take us to the park and there was lots of hints but we left her here. On leaving she said "Didnt you hear me knocking this morning?" and as she'dd asked I said "Yes I did I hoped you'dd go away!"
I couldnt help it, It was the first day of the holidays and this happens every school holiday, I end up with her round here while pisshead parents sleep all day and then play music all night. Drives me mad.
It has worked though as she hasnt been round since and her mum has gave me a few deadly stares but ive had peace so far.
Thier mother obviously couldnt give a monkeys where they are so I would ignore the door or just say look we're busy, or just going out or whatever or you will become the local playground before you know it. Good Luck!
Failing that get a fierce dorr to guard the door!!!!!!

Fierce dog that was meant to be!

yeh charliecat, isn't it sad that so many parents obviously don't give a s*t about their kids that's why i'm so soft and let all the locals kids in, i actually feel quite sorry for some of them. To give you one example X friend of DSS came yesterday at 5pm, dss asked if he could stay whilst he ate his tea, his mum and dad had gone to local pub, I agreed but said I couldn't feed him - ok - she finally phoned at 8.45pm to ask if I could send X home, she was about to put his tea on!! I walked him home as it was about to get really dark and we have no street lights (he is only 8). I am a bl**y fool or what??

I usually feed and water the stray from next door but I could just foresee the next 2 weeks day in day out, and I dont fob my kids off anywhere so I dont see why I should be the free local childminder and resturant(sp?).
These kids never get called back for lunch or dinner and are often here from early morning till bedtime and noone even asks where they are.

funnily enough if my dss's go to someone else's house over the lunch period, they NEVER get fed and come back home starving to death "what's for lunch?" "lunch was 3 hours ago!". Don't their mothers ever eat??

Many thanks all, I think I'd better nip this in the bud. Maybe it was a good lesson for me. I had had visions of being the local Earth mother, but duh, when is that going to happen when I'm at work all day! It is hard not to crack when they come back 7 or 8 times a day, even when I had a day off with no kids to sort the house out a little, they kept coming and asking if they could help me! 10 minutes knocking, god, but that wouldn't surprise me when they are older now I've seen what 7 and 4 are like. I did manage to lay down the law and forbid them from going upstairs, which worked. DH is outraged with this family, and doesn't like his angel to go to their house. I think partly because they are Irish like him but obviously they are a bit dysfunctional so it annoys him. She SAYS she wants to play with them but doesn't seem to have much fun, unlike when she plays with her friends at nursery. The granny lives there, works 9 to 5 as a nurse, but has never even been mentioned once by the kids, and their mum is a SAHM, was very friendly at first, then cooled quickly, I think when she saw we are always out at work so not much potential as a mate. Or she thinks we're snobby, and she's right I guess! The dad is a DJ so they have odd hours (DH says uh-oh drugs-he's not usually that judgemental honest but when it comes to his dds..). Also an uncle seems to live there, and does all the DIY and clearing up the vast amounts of rubbish they create, and yesterday a grandad with a zimmer frame seemed to appear as well. Mum is always there; when she collected her 2 for dinner a couple of weeks ago said she would have mine back soon but she is recovering from a tonsillectomy, to which I gaily said don't worry they are welcome. But now we have Easter break and while all the other kids have gone somewhere nice or are otherwise gainfully employed, WE are still around because school hols aren't a factor for us yet. And THEY are still around because the parents Easter plans for them were just chucking them out in the street. So having them in my house doesn't give her a break really since she's always got rid of them outside anyway. Today I went out to the local park near work to eat my sandwich and decided to take my 2 there instead of home today since our garden is still no-go area. I feel a bit driven away, but I've got a headache and can't face it today. I HAD been planning to make our garden the local playground, so they don't have to play in the street, but I think you are right and I would be NUTS to do that. They would wreck the place and terrorise my 2 younger pansies. As advised I will be much more firm in future. DH just gets rid of them over and over, but he's never in until 7 and sometimes I just cave, I am addled with tiredness. DD will be in the same class at the local school as the 4 year old, I could cope if it was just her, or the 7 year old. But why should I? I'm not that great with my own 2.

Majorstress, when your garden is done will it be fenced off so your 2 can play outside safely and in peace? Or will the strays be able to come in as they please?
We have a row of 10 gardens here and all the kids on the row wreck and pull plants etc so noone bothers to do anything with thier garden. I made a point of not letting anyone in unless invited and went mad one summers day screaming this isnt the local f*ing park..they got the gist.
Be friendly when your in the mood and prepared but let them know you can be a dragon when its not on your terms!!!!!

Yes it is well fenced as it had a huge pond and I intend to keep it locked. I guess this is a class thing, we can only afford ex-council but because we are academics come across as hoity-toity. The area is expensive because it's in London but still has a more "councily" feel than our old neighborhood. The people I mix with from work are MORE middle class than my background so I don't know the etiquette there either. We have had some lovely "playdates" and I wouldn't dream of not offering grub, but they don't eat anyway!

Lo and behold I got home to be greeted by the 2 girls plus a returned friend, the 2 older ones told the 4 year old that they were busy putting on a show and didn't have time to visit us today. I could hardly get my additional "no's" in edgeways.
Some of the waifs you guys describe merit a call to social services! What an eyeopener for me. My uncle is a foster carer and it is appalling what they get, but now I realise what must lead up to them getting kids, there must be 100 "strays" with kind neighbors for every one they get.

majorstress, just be firm and do what suits you and your dds. One time it might ok for guests to come in and play, another time it won't. That's life and you are totally within your rights to chop and change. Say no with a smile on your face. Don't offer long reasons to these children. Just say it's not convenient today but might be tomorrow.

I have had about 5 years of coping with children playing out and inpromptu visits. Sometimes it's great to have a houseful, most times it's not.

Things I have learned: never let your children play with small but valuable toys in the street - dolls house furniture, brio train tracks etc. Never let your child take out anything that's too 'wantable' by older children, such as gameboy games, swapping cards or footballs - sadly, some children (mostly older ones IME) are light fingered - or play with something till it breaks.

The same goes for bikes and other wheeled things - make sure your child or children of the same size, ride them - not bigger children who can break them.

Never let children you don't know go into the bedrooms. Make upstairs a totally no go area - this is partly for your safetly as the adult in charge - if a child said to their parents, I was in 'so and so's bedroom and *** happened' this could put you in a worrying position.

And if a young child wants to come in, say 'no, not unless you ask your parents first - I cannot let you come in without their permission' In your case, majorstress, this could work if the parents of these two girls are asleep during the day. They can't give permission so no invite in. If you want, you could also ask for a phone number and say you will ring the parents to check if it is ok.

I think it is very important for your children to know that it is unacceptable and dangerous for any young child to go inside any house without their parents knowing. If they see you allowing visits behind parents backs, they might think it's ok to do this themselves, which is a safety risk.

If the children want to come in, it may be better to let them sit on the doorstep or play in the hall - I don't know if this would work for you, but I find this a good compromise. I then being out a tray of drinks for them, but the gang know they cannot come inside.

Right now my sons are having a water fight in the street and I have said no to having guests inside - both my sons have asked and also one of the neighbouring boys has asked me to my face. I've just said, it's lovely weather out there so go and enjoy it!

I did have this problem when we first moved in. The 7 yr old from downstairs kept on coming and asking if dd (then aged 4) could play out. When i said no, she isn't old enought to play out, she asked if she could come in. I have only ever allowed her in once and that was enough. They now know, not to knock the door as dd (now 6) is still not allowed to play out.
I also don't invite kids to tea that often either. There isn't enough room for my 3 to play in here never mind anyone else.
The girl who lives downstairs has been allowed to play outside the front of the block since she was about 18mths old. How she has never been run over i don't know.
I did once want to fit in around here, but soon realised that most of the people just don't have the same sort of morals as me and let their kids do what they like. I don't care anymore, i'd rather be me then be like them.

Oh my god! I thought it would get easier when they got older. The pests were back after 45 minutes and wouldn't take no for an answer from dd1, so I had to go and shut the door in thier faces. So, poll time everybody, what age did or would you let them play out, for arguments sake say in a quiet road, filled with others playing out all the time from 4 on up.

Well we live in a first floor flat so i won't let mine play out as it's impossible to keep an eye on them. They are 6,4 and 16mths.
If we eventually get a house and garden then i still probably won't let them play out.
Perhaps when they get to 10 ????
Don't know really. I am stricter than i thought i'd be.

just wanted to add some more - while I agree that some children who play out a lot might have a really bad home set up and be candidates for social services, IME beware of making too hasty judgements.

Admiteddly, in our last area, two sets of children my son played out with were taken into care. Another family were out in all weathers while their mother was in bed most of the day - but she was very ill during her pregnancy and had her partner looking after her as well. However, I have visited some of my sons' playing out friends homes and they are lovely - lots of toys, lots of garedn space, on-the-ball, nice parents. To be honest I have been a bit surprised which doesn't say much for me and my assumptions.

We have some neighbours who take great care with their children. They are well dressed, well housed and very well cared for as far as I can see. The six children range from 4 to 15 years of age so it must be difficult and expensive to take them out en famille all the time, I imagine. Playing out is the rule for them, but they are not neglected at all.

majorstress, to answer your question - I let my four year old (at school and will be five in august) play out on a quiet road, with his older brother(nearly 10) and a group of friends ranging in age from 4 to 12 years. But not all the time - just now and again.

majorstress, I didn't let the first one out of the backyard unsupervised until she was about TEN! The youngest was out by 5 or 6 but had to ask to be crossed over the busiest (not very busy) road until he was 10. But we do live on the busiest road, it's not a quiet residential street.

In your situation I would probably wait until at least 6. Depends really how desperately she wants to play out with the others. It can be very good for them to play in a big group, learn to fit in etc.