Worst parenting moment last night with 8 yo dd

[Fattymcbatty]

I have an 8 yo old dd who is, and has been for years, atrocious at going to bed. Recently it's got worse and last night she kept coming out of her room, tantruming on her bed, crying, moaning - apparently the cause being 'her tongue hurt' (there's a different cause every night). By 11pm she had woken up her 1 yo sister and her 9 yo brother. I'm ashamed to say that I shouted at her with my face right up to hers, I was so so angry. I said to DH I need to leave the room before I do something I'll regret. I feel like I'm living in a nightmare and barely remember what it's like to have an evening on the sofa with DH watching TV. Of course, this morning, she's sorry but I have said I'm sick of hearing it and want to see it in her actions. We've now said no Xbox, park, play dates, treats etc until she sorts it out once and for all. I was going to take her loom bands away too but I thought if she has literally nothing to do she'll just make my life hell during the day too. She's been really spoilt this weekend as it was her bday last week and I feel like she's thrown it all back in our face.

Our routine is that I take her up at 7.45, read one chapter of her book to her on our bed then take her into her own room where she can either read, do loom bands or sometimes even watch Netflix on the ipad until 8.30. It's when it's time for sleep that it all goes wrong.

Any advice before I crack up?

[post edited by MNHQ]

My sympathies to you first of all. Don't worry, shouting at her once won't have caused any damage!

My first piece of advice is to start reading her her bedtime stories in her own bed. I think you might start to see a major improvement as she associates her own bed with being nurtured and tucked in metaphorically. What you are doing at the moment in her eyes is "evicting" her to her own devices and withdrawing the nurturing as you send her to bed. You need to ensure there's less of a gap between her bedtime routine and her bed.

Is she only like this about bedtime?

BTW I agree with you about the withdrawal of privileges in the form of boxed entertainment. She'll be fine with loom bands and reading.

My DS8 is a nightmare at bedtimes and still goes to sleep pretty late but we seem to be getting there with the settling in his own room now.

We have to keep to the same routine everynight, like you one chapter of a story- he finds it really hard to unwind so we read from the middle of one chapter to the middle of the next because quite often chapters end on an exciting point and he finds it very hard to switch off after that.

He has a night light which is a little plug in lamp with a dimmer switch, so he can have it a big brighter then I turn it down but not off when he is asleep.

He also has a sound box, he picks the sound- things like bird call, waves etc so that he has background noise in his room.

Some nights I still have to sit in his room to settle him but he is so use to his routine now that if I sit next to him he is asleep within half an hour so still get my evening, not ideal but much better than the nights when he would scream and kick the walls till the neighbours came round.

We still have the odd night when he is up till midnight but he is much calmer now so although it is not ideal it is better than the nights when he screamed.

We try and make sure there is a 1hr gap between any screen time and bed so his brain has had time to relax and switch off and after his brother is in bed we try and have some calm 1:1 time with either myself or OH, a short game of chess/loom bands/hang man etc

Sorry this is a bit of an essay, this works for us but I know all children are different, I hope you manage to find something that works for you.

Oh and when we first started using the sound box and the exact same routine each night, every step he did he got a sticker and he could build up to different level rewards, he picked the routine from a list of sensible options and took control of his bedtime so to speak, it had become such a negative time in our house that we had to really switch it on its head and make a fresh positive start.

Poor you. Assuming you're in UK, it's even harder at the moment with warm nights and light evenings. I agree with stories in her bed, and would tend towards more reading and no screen time just before she's supposed to go to sleep. Or is this the next sanction?

Good luck!

Thanks all. Sorry, should have said, reading is done in our room as she shares a room with her little sister who is fast asleep by 7pm!

EnglishRose, I would happily sit with her till she's asleep if I knew it would take half an hour. Trouble is it either takes MUCH longer and/or her bed creaks so much when I get off she wakes up again! I don't really want to have to sit with her to sleep but like I said if all it took was half an hour of my time I'd take it! I guess I could try pulling her chair up right next to her bed. Is this a bad habit to get into though?

OK, if she is 11 is she able to read in her own bed to herself, using a dim bedside light, with you sitting quietly beside her? You could try stroking her hair/back afterwards for 5 mins to help her wind down even more. (depends on how good a sleeper your other child is)

Sorry I see she is 8 - I picked up on the 11pm as her age!

Can you have your chair beside the bed, but with her in the bed?

Yeah that's what I'm thinking, chair right next to bed. Might also buy a portable black out blind thingy from mothercare. Just don't want mummy sitting with her til she's asleep to be seen as a treat, as the other DCs might feel its unfair!

Can you not just leave her to do the activities in her room as long as she likes and put herself to bed once she's ready? I didn't need much sleep as a child and 8.30 would have been way too early for me at 8yo. My Mum just used to say I was allowed to read as long as I liked as long as I wasn't up and about, so I'd just read until I dropped off (probably around 10).

Mrscog, yes this has also crossed my mind. Trouble is the only thing she can do really quietly (ie no chance of waking her sis) for any length of time is watching Netflix on the ipad (normally something mermaid related), with headphones..... I thought about saying just do this til you fall asleep but I'm guessing you'll all tell me that's a bad idea....?!

It took a lot longer to start with and has gradually come down to half an hour, also I move further away each night so he isn't becoming reliant on me.

As I said some nights he will stay on his own with a book quite happily but tends to fall asleep pretty late and then the morning is horrible so that's okay for weekends and holidays but I find it has to be more structured in the week.

My dd used to be like this when younger, and I, exhausted, used to shout and get angry and be at my wits ends. It is the thing I regret the most.

I should have listen, given her time, make bedtime more about her than me. I am aware now that I was so exhausted I, like you, wanted to have some quiet time with dh or alone. I am sure she felt it. She was worried, maybe scared, maybe not sleepy... i don't know but I never stopped and questioned it. I did all I was supposed to do (bath, story etc) and expected her to leave me in peace sleep.

She is now 8. I have mellowed. and although she is not as relaxed as her sister who is asleep in a second, it is pleasant. But most night she is in bed between 8.30 and 9.30, we play by ear. Sometimes she keeps coming down with an excuse or other. Often a banana and a glass of milk resolves it. Sometimes I tell her to sit next to me quietly.

I am not sure about punishments (although I would not let them use ipad etc before bed). It is an anxiety. Try to talk to her, see what she thinks about it and ask her opinion on how to make it better. I always regretted not listening to her then and instead taking it as if she was doing it to annoy me.

Good luck, I know how frustrating it is.

Oh and where is dh in all this? Mine either kept out or backed me up. I now wish he'd have told me to go and relaxed and leave it to him.

I love to say go for the Netflix thing because hassle wise I can se it is ideal, but it really is one of those short term gain long term pain things.

DS was hooked on watching screens with headphones in and half his problems are from too much screen time.

Your DD may not be as affected though, I don't hate screen time as much as some parents. My nephew falls asleep watching a film and my SIL doesn't seem to think it affects him, tbh I don't see him enough (don't live near) to know whether it affects his learning/behaviour/mood etc.

Could you buy a little book light, I would think that would be a similar level of light with regards to disturbing her sister, or mermaid stories on cd with headphones?

Is there anywhere else were she can go and say read or draw, like in your room etc. Also I find that dd2 does not wake up if dd1 has bedlight on. when she is not tired I tell her to do quiet activities till she's ready herself.

From experience I'd say no tv and no headphones. Screen makes the brain work faster (so I read) so no ideal before bedtime and headphones no good for ears. Plus dh so used to going to bed with tv as a child that now he has to have it on to fall asleep which is awful. One should fell askeep with thoughts not given images imo.

I feel for you.

Englishrose, i see the damage that screen time as a child did to dh. He was parked on it constantly. Tv in bedroom, tv on all the time. Now as an adult the tv gets switched on immedatly on walking in from work, he falls asleep in front of it, goes to bed and turns that one on and on it stays all night. When I banned it from bedroom he plugs headphones on the phone and puts it on there.

He claims, and it is partially true, that he cannot relax without it nor fall asleep. He uses it to not think and avoid facing issues. It is dreadful.

I would try the netflix thing. There is a lot of fear and waffle over screens which IMO is unfounded. Yes some people find that the light from backlighted things makes it hard for them to settle down but this isn't the case for everyone. Be honest with her, tell her it's on a trial basis and you'll regroup in a month or something. But DH hates reading and will let DS go to sleep watching TV if it's his turn for bedtime. I haven't noticed a difference between this and me reading to him.

Have you tried audio books? There are many that can be downloaded on iTunes.

My DD used to really struggle to go to sleep and we had dreadful evenings with her, until someone suggested that maybe she was getting stressed about not falling asleep straight away, which was making her even less likely to drop off.
We told her that it didn't matter if she didn't go to sleep but that she had to lie quietly with her eyes closed and rest, listening to a quiet story cd if she wanted to. Once we'd removed the stress about falling asleep, it resolved itself quite quickly. Do you think that might help?

Sounds hard work.

Tbh my first thought was 7.45 with lights out at 8.30 sounds v early for an 8 year old.

That's what I do with my just turned 5 year old, it works well. Any earlier and she is just not ready to switch off even if she is tired (she's coming to end of Reception year, they are all pretty zonked!)

I second the audio books idea and really discourage you from the netflix idea. There is some very good evidence that screens before bedtime encourages the sort of brain activity which makes sleep more difficult.

I also know from my own experience and my kids', that we fall asleep much more quickly if we listen to something than if we watch something. I think this is sort of just common sense... I see DD struggle to keep her eyes open so as not to miss anything if she is watching something, but when listening, she will close her eyes when they get tired, and then she drifts off. I think when you let a kid watch a story at bedtime, they will only fall asleep once they are completely physically exhausted, which isn't really what you want, either for their well-being or for 'training' them to get to sleep.

I started using audiobooks with DD (4) a couple of months ago when we were having trouble getting her to settle, and it has been brilliant. No more problems, just like that.

Also based on this experience with DD and sleep - maybe don't link it to the loss of her treats? I know it is frustrating, but I got better results with DD after I ditched the idea of 'punishing' her for it (even though she was doing really annoying stuff like getting out of bed and taking ALL the clothes out of her wardrobe).

I would suggest when she is coming out of her room not speaking to her, ignoring her, putting her back into bed but without eye contact in a supernanny sort of way. Never allow anything noisy/visually stimulating like games, tv, computers once it is bedtime, even Loom bands are probably too stimulating. When she is in bed, tell her she can read as long as she likes and then turn off the light when she is ready. But only reading. Tell her so long as she stays in her room you'll come and check on her every ten minutes and when you do just poke your head around the door and don't engage in any conversation - just give reassuring smile and leave. Exercise good sleep hygiene - soft lighting, nice temperature, cotton sheets, calm voices.

I have never allowed any electronics in bedrooms - audio books and soft music included.

I strongly recommend giving her the power to turn her own light off once she is done with the reading and not dictating when that should be. Say as long as she doesn't distrurb siblings, stays in her room she can read all night if she wants too. Much like Grem says in her post. She won't read all night - she probably won't last much past 9.30 if that.

I would agree about reading to her in her bed, lights out or dimmed and no more entertainment after story - possibly it's over-stimulating her so making her restless.