My nearly 2.5yo DS has lost the plot and I don't know how to handle it.

[pigwidgeon991]

We started potty training a few months ago following some interest from him and it went extraordinarily well. He took to it straight away and we had probably two accidents in a few months. About a week or so ago he suddenly started hating and refusing to go on the potty and having accidents left right and centre.

He has also been sleeping appallingly over the last month or so. Literally up all night screaming (have tried CIO, CC, sitting with him etc).

Then over the last few days he has taken a real turn in personality. He has always been quite stubborn and strong willed but we had established a good situation by being quite strict (I.e. Ignoring any tantrums, consist with the naughty step if did naughty things on purpose three times in a row). But now he is going absolutely berserk at the slightest thing and working himself into a frenzy. For example, last night he wanted to wear a t shirt that was dirty so we put it in the wash together and I explained that it would be clean tomorrow etc. I would obviously not expect him to fully understand this and not be surprised at him being frustrated etc but it escalated incredibly quickly into total hysteria that would not stop for 45 minutes. This seems to be happening really often (can last pretty much the whole day). He seems absolutely beside himself and inconsolable. But he is also capable of being incredibly jolly.

I know that is likely because he is very tired and it is a cycle but have found it happens even on the rare nights when we only have one quick wake up.

I do work full time but have since he was very small so can't think that would be a factor? He has been at his nursery for about four months and mostly really loves it. We do have a new baby on the way which I'm sure means something but would it have this extreme an affect?

Any advice or ideas about why this might be happening much appreciated!

Just been reading the responses to that BBC article about schools as childcare etc. Making me feel really neurotic now! Maybe my DS is just so stressed out from being in full time nursery?

Am a real supporter of mums working and have never had negative thoughts about it (in terms of effect it has on children etc) but it did make me wonder whether nursery is too stressful for that amount of time a day. Sent me down an irrational guilt spiral!

Has he got his back molars yet? My DS is 2.5yo and we're still waiting for these to come through and i've noticed that some days they really seem to bother him and it causes major meltdowns. Calpol certainly helps bring him back to his usual self. I cant offer any other advice but maybe something has happened or changed at nursery (new staff or a friend leaving or picking on him).

His best friend has just left nursery (although I'm not sure he knows, he was ill for the friend's last day on Friday and not been at nursery since due to Easter hols) but maybe everyone has been talking about it a lot at nursery? We are going to best friend's house tomorrow so hopefully that will be good? I wouldn't have thought friends at this age mattered that much but maybe my DS is more sensitive than I thought.

That is good advice about the back molars. Could well be it. He has been sticking out his tongue quite a lot in a weird way making me wonder whether he is in pain in his mouth. I will have a look in his mouth tonight!

could he be coming down with something
if he has only been at nursery for a few months then he is still building up he s immune system and is more susceptible to viruses

Maybe he isn't getting enough sleep and it is all too much. I remember ds's sleep being dreadful at that age. We slept in his room right next to him and he settled down again after a few weeks.

Amongst the moms I know we all agree that mid 2's is not a good age. Backchat, meltdowns, regressions and nap refusing. Mine seems to be coming out of it a bit now but it has been not fun for a while.

I would think its unlikely to be a sudden aversion to nursery and more about him finding his personality.

I think there is quite a lot going on for him: nursery, new baby (meaning changes to mum he doesn't really understand), friends not being about any more. These are big changes for him and he is bound to be unsettled.

I also second insanecerre. Dd was ill with every big going for months and month when she started nursery and is now doing it all again after moving from the baby room to the toddler room (new room, new bugs). It really started to get her down after a while as she just felt rubbish for ages. So it could just be low level illness.

And of course, he is 2.5. My dd (just gone 2) would also have a massive screaming fit over not being allowed to wear the top she wanted if she is in that sort of mood. Some days it seems any thing will tip her over, other days she is the most delightful little thing you could care to meet. I think this is normal for the age. :)

He sounds like a normal 2.5 year old to me. I am a grandmother and one of my grandsons at almost 3 "goes off on one" several times a day sometimes. Thankfully his mom stays calm and doesn't "give in" but is very good at distracting him rather than getting into the "naughty step" business. He wanted to eat his cereal and milk in the sitting room yesterday and she said "No, at his little table in the kitchen diner" and he screamed and shouted and cried, and she just kept saying calmly, No X you sit at this little table like always or you can't have it............." He eventually gave in after about 20 mins but then he wanted an ice lolly from the freezer and "No it's too early" caused another strop. Oh the joys of toddlers.

I really don't want to make you feel guilty but I honestly don't think full time nursery is good for children. The thing is no matter how it is dressed up, a nursery is an institution and so everyone eats, drinks, plays, gets nappy changed etc at the same time. I think children under 5 need a smaller day care setting (like a good childminder) as this is a much more "normal" situation and there are fewer children so minded children get more attention. Childminders almost always have children at school so they go out each day to the shops, school etc and this is altogether a better way of care I think.

There is a paper back entitled "Should children go to nursery" or it might be "should under 3's go to nursery" by Steven Biddulph which you might find useful. Another good book is "Why Love Matters" by Sue Gerhardt - she talks of tests on children of the same age at nursery and at home and the nursery children had raised levels of the "stress hormone" cortisol at the end of the day, whereas the children at home had lower levels. Obviously it depends on the sort of care children get at home - if the parenting is "not good enough" then the children are certainly better off at nursery.

Could you maybe think about a childminder, or even a nanny when the new baby comes along. Presumably your son will be around 3 when the new baby is born, and that is a key age for jealousy.......as I'm sure you know. I imagine you will have maternity leave, but hope you will keep the firstborn with you, as I've known mothers who continue to send the oldest to nursery and I can see the reasoning, but don't think it's a good idea.

Now having admitted to my "elderly status" I am ducking down with my hard hat on!! I honestly do understand why so many parents have to work full time now, but just don't think nursery is the answer - not full time in an event.

No real ideas re screaming I am afraid. Tiredness could be huge part. Just wanted to say kicking off for 45 minutes re not being allowed to wear t shirt not unusual, at least he wasn't wanting his dirty nappy back which is common with my DS if one forces him unwillingly into a nappy change! Does the naughty step actually help? I find the best think is distract or if that is too late ignore, then plenty of cuddles after. Also are you able to give quality attention when he is not at nursery? Not easy when pg and tired, but mine kicks off if hungry, tired, or not getting attention eg I am doing housework

Also to say my DS was 3.3 when baby arrived and loves him to bits, no jealousy at all, indeed he thinks the baby wonderful and can't get enough of him

nananina
that's really not helping the op
sometimes parents have no choice about using childcare fulltime
op, I've worked in nurseries for 15 years and I have seen fulltime children cope very well and benefit hugely from being in nursery
most nurseries work really hard to ensure children are settled and happy I know we do in our nursery.
ignore the doomsayers
do what is right for you and your family

OP please ignore nananina's ignorant, thoughtless post. It honestly sounds part normal, part teething to me. The meltdowns will be more intense due to broken sleep and a sore mouth. Hope they pop through soon!

curioussuze you might not agree with my post but it wasn't ignorant (which actually means lack of knowledge) and I didn't think it was thoughtless. I was merely offering another suggestion to nursery care.

Insancerre sorry I wasn't meaning to criticise individual nursery workers and I'm sure you all do your level best, but there is actual evidence that full time nursery care for children under 3 is not a good thing. You say the children "benefited hugely" from nursery but you won't know that, because once the child has left nursery you wouldn't have any more contact, and difficulties often emerge at around aged 5 and beyond. I'm not saying all children will be affected - but I still think 10 hours nursery care from the age of around 6 months till ready for school is too much.......I think it's fine for over 2s/3s for a couple of days a week maybe. I am well aware many (most) parents have no choice about full time child care, but I was suggesting alternative care to nursery care i.e. childminder or nanny. Interestingly when my grand children were in nursery, many of the mothers were "poaching" a good nursery work to work for them at home. They would pay more (I don't think the pay is particularly good in nurseries is it? In the end new workers had to sign a contract to say they wouldn't leave to work for a family where the child had been in their nursery. Actually it wasn't legal for them to make them do this but they certainly tried it on.

actually I do have contact with the once they leave
the nursery I work in is next to the school so I see them every day until they go to high school
the nursery I worked on before did holiday and breakfast clubs so we saw them all the time
I've read those books a and the evidence you speak of us not that secure

Actually all these researches around nurseries are only popular in the anglo saxon world. Here, in the rest of Europe we are quite happy to send our children to nursery. without many second thoughts, unless there are some individual problems, of course.

The toddler years can be the least charming of child rearing. Toddlers are known for being stroppy, tantrummy and strong willed. They are of course finding their space in the world and sometimes yes, the world is overwhelming, it still is for adults!

I have a nearly 12 yrs old and a nearly ten. The nursery years have been by far the most peaceful and happiest.

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

While I don't really agree Nananina I do see your point about full time nursery being very intense. I wouldn't change it now though, I think it would be more disruptive to change and had a real struggle finding a good childminder before (had an amazing one from the age of 4 months to 2 and then sadly moved and then had one that he just plain wasn't happy with). Also I do think he seems very happy there and I quite like that everything is quite uniform. I'm in the camp of thinking kids thrive on routine etc.

PS distraction categorically does not work for my DS I of course do try this.

lonesomeBiscuit I think the naughty step is an amazing technique and works really well. I wouldn't use it for calming a tantrum though. I meant that I use it when doing something deliberately naughty (hitting, throwing in a rage etc) I wouldn't put him there if he was kicking off about wanting his way etc I don't think.

We seem to have just started this stage with dd (23 mths). Its like that movie Gremlins. I used to have a sweet little Mogwai and now I have a screaming, ranting, defiant monster.

Personally we're finding distraction is working less and less (it used to work like a dream). Reasoning/explaining isn't always working either as dd just doesn't understand sufficiently yet.

We've started withdrawing attention (eg saying Mummy doesn't want to play with you anymore as you're hitting and it hurts/Daddy is going to go into another room as your screaming is hurting his ears etc and walking away). Usually that stops the tantrum as there's no audience (our nursery key worker said she had used a similar tactic on dd and it worked well).

The hardest times are when we're trying to get ready for work and dd doesn't want to get dressed. Yesterday after dd wouldn't stop kicking and screaming dp finally put her in her cot for 1 minute with the door closed. Sometimes they just need a time out alone (in a safe location) to break the tantrum. (It worked, dd was very calm afterwards).

The naughty step hasn't worked great as dd seems to think its a game.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking nurseries are all bad and CMs/nannies all good. I've seen and heard of some pretty terrible CMs. My dd loves her nursery and I tend to think staff work better in a team environment rather than one where there's noone to witness their performance.

Insancerre you might see children before and after school but you don't see them in their home environment and this is where the difficult behaviours are played out. I am not saying all CMs are good, that would be silly, and I am most certainly not saying that nursery workers don't do their level best to ensure the children are safe and happy in their care. I actually think caring for children in any setting is a task that is totally underestimated - it can be tiring and dare I say boring sometimes, especially when children are being difficult.

I find it very difficult to believe that anyone who has read the 2 books I mentioned (especially Why Love Matters) can say that the evidence is "not that secure" - also you must be very academic because "Why Love Matters" is by no means an easy read and I can't pretend I have read every word even though this is my area of expertise.

I quote from the book "In modern societies, children are increasingly separated from their mothers to enable them to go out to work. Arguments have raged for decades about the impact this has on their children. Andrea Dettling a researcher in the USA used cortisol as a way to measure the effect on their stress response. She studied children aged 3 and 4 in full time care at a day nursery. What she found confirmed the fears of some mothers that their children do indeed find the experience stressful. They did not look stressed or behave as if they were stressed but their stress response was activated and their cortisol levels rose as the day wore on. By the afternoon their cortisol was extra high - at a time of day when it was normally sinking in children at home with a "good enough" parent. (Dettling et al.1999) This was a scientific experiment.

However before leaping to conclusions about nursery care, Dettling focused her second study on children placed with childminders who were highly responsive to them and found their cortisol levels to be normal. (Dettling et al 2000)

These findings support the importance of emotional regulation and the absolute necessity for small children to have someone continuously available who notices their feelings and can help to regulate them.

With the best will in the world nursery workers (because of the worker/child ratio) simply cannot be highly responsible to each and every child in their care. It is especially important that children under 3 are not in full time day care from a young age. After 3 it is not so essential and nursery may suit them very well.

I have to say I find it pretty hard to believe that the millions of children who are in full time nursery are really so negatively affected.

Couldn't we also argue that having eight full time nannies to one child that sit staring at the child waiting to see what they did/wanted would be better for their cortisol levels? Is it not maybe part of life to get stressed sometimes? Should I give up work on the grounds that it likely raises my cortisol levels?

Appreciate what you are saying to a degree NanaNina but I think my children would also be better off if we had stacks more cash, more sunshine, spinach, flaxseed and cod liver oil with every meal and countless other things. It doesn't mean they are suffering long term negative effects.

Sometimes they slightly less ideal option is just part of life.

Sorry I should have made it clear that the evidence I was citing was most certainly not saying that millions of children in full time nursery care are going to be so negatively affected. That would be a ridiculous claim. Obviously this was just one sample of children (so a relatively small social experiment) So many other things are in the mix, the temperament of the child, the sort of parenting he/she has at home, children with fewer social skills than others, child's ability to mix with other children etc.

And of course I wasn't thinking of 8 full time nannies sitting looking at one child "to see what he was going to do next" - and can I just make it clear this isn't just what I think, it has actually been evidenced by other studies which I could reproduce here but don't think that would be appropriate.

The thing is about the raised cortisol in babies and children is that there is evidence in the book "Why Love Matters" that the care a baby/child receives can actually change pathways in the brain, and these pathways can impact on the child in the future. This was a massive piece of evidence as no one had been able to evidence this before. There is also evidence that a baby in utero can be affected by tension in the mother and domestic violence etc. SO raised cortisol in a child is far more damaging than in an adult, where our brain pathways are formed.

Typically the profile of a child who has been in full time nursery care (8 hours a day from the age of 6/8 months) will mean that at aged 5/6 they will be less emotionally resilient,(meaning that they haven't been taught how to regulate their emotions, so that behaviours associated with 2.5 years can be seen in "middle years" aged children) less co-operative, more oppositional, and sometimes hostility and anger. I am NOT saying that all children in nursery care full time will be so affected, but every psychologist sees a fair number of these children in clinical settings on a regular basis.

The book is actually worth dipping into.

Nananina on Why Love Matters, yes, it is far from accepted that the evidence in the book is rock solid. My understanding is that it's a particular interpretation of the evidence. It's also a huge guilt trip for parents.

For my money, Lovebombing was a better investment. Written with enormous compassion by Oliver James, and one of the few parenting books which didn't indulge in parent blaming. And it's short. And it seems to work.

Playful Parenting also has some useful techniques for this age.

Neither of the books I mentioned "indulge in parent blaming" - why would they? And a scientific experiment is not open to interpretation - it is an exact science!! I can't see why it's a "guilt trip" for parents especially if you don't believe the evidence, and I've only quoted half a page of an entire paperback. There is NO "parent blaming" in the book and I think it's unwise to make that allegation, unless of course you have read the book and can point me to the evidence for this.

I haven't heard of the Oliver James book so will have a look at it.

Nananina I have Why Love Matters on my bookshelf, read most of it (not all, as it went beyond the age relevant to me at that point), and know how it made me feel.

I can't be bothered to go back to the minutiae of the experiments relied on for the author's hypothesis. But my recollection is that she is in part extrapolating from brain scans of extremely neglected/institutionalised infants to make her point. You wouldn't get ethical approval to carry out an experiment to prove her hypothesis, even if it were possible to construct one.

Just to get back to the OP, I have a 2.5 yo and a 5mo and am a SAHM. I have been away from DD for exactly five nights in her whole life (2 to have DS), and don't have family nearby, so am her main caregiver, along with DP, 24/7. I could have written your original post (minus the potty training - haven't had the stomach to broach that yet). Honestly, it's not nursery: it's his age....

I heard a rumour that 2.4, 2.5, and 2.6 are the most terrible it of the terrible twos and am clinging to that. You're doing a great job - don't feel guilty about anything.