I'm seriously thinking about more 1950's style parenting. Comments please?

[clumsymum]

We have a very lively, personable, boisterous bright little boy of nearly 7, who is also cheeky to the point of being rude, and VERY controlling.

For the last 3 years we have tried to stick to the Tanya Byron / Christopher Green etc model as regards discipline and behaviour. Praise the good, use reward charts, try to ignore bad behaviour etc.
But as he gets older feel that I'm floundering. The last two weeks of the school term were horrendous as far as his behaviour was concerned, and altho' Mon - Wed was OK-ish, from Thursday teatime, he became a bugger, and yesterday morning he shouted at me, threw things at me, slammed doors in my face, the lot.

So late yesterday morning I slapped his bottom for the first time ever, and he spent 30 minutes locked in his room while I ignored him.
The rest of the day his behaviour was much improved, and right thru' to lunchtime today, when he refused to pick up toys. Another spell locked in his room, and he picked up his toys (after a deal of yelling from inside his bedroom, he wasn't allowed out until he had been quiet for 10 minutes, and agreed to do as he was asked). When the toys had been cleared up, he was hugged and praised for it.

Given how many programmes there are concerned with handling 'kids from hell', and the number of parents at school struggling to discipline their children, I am beginning to think that the 'softly softly' approach has come too far, and that an 'old school approach' to discipline might be called for.

BTW, I'm not suggesting regular beatings with a strap or such, but that reasonable punishment for poor behaviour takes on equal importance to praise for the good.

Sorry I missed your post FM. I curtainly wouldn't say that people take the softly, softly approach, just because they don't smack. I say that they take that approach because they don't disapline.

But then I don't agree that smacking is loosing control. It can't be generalised like that. There are controlled smacks, eg, being warned (after using other methods to disapline) that "if you do that again you will get a smack" is a controlled smack. One that is done as just a reflex reaction because 'you can't take anymore' is loosing control. Again my oppinion.

I agree FIS that toddlers are different.

But then my toddler knows that under no cucumstances (tired or not) does she hit mummy or daddy, (and like all toddlers she has tried) so when she is 7 I curtainly wouldn't expect her to start. So therefore isn't it reasonable to say that a 7 year old is deffinately old enough and intelligent enough to be taught the same thing.

Again clumsymum I think that you did right.

I think its important to understand the reasons behind a behaviour because then you can start to deal with it. But it is important to deal with it. I have 3 very different children, and they respond to and require a different approach.
I also think confidence is important. I have dealt with 3 major behavioural problems of ds1's this week (he's severely autistic so requires a quite different approach than the other 2) . I think because I had a consultation with an expert (with autism herself- I;m a great believer in consulting people who have been there- whatever the problem) and ran past some ideas with her, and she confirmed that I was thinking along the right lines and made some further suggestions. And hey presto 3 windows in the house are open, the calendar is no longer stuck on January, and we took a short walk on Dartmoor of my choosing. I think she gave me confidence that the approach was the right one. And its all been achieved with ds1 remaining a happy bunny. Confidence. It helps.

to read your post, clumsymum. I have 7 year olds too and like you made a conscious long term decision not to smack my children or lock them in their room. I must admit that I would be very distressed to find myself doing either of those things because I would feel that, according to my views, I had let myself down and done something that I would normally consider unhelpful in response to stress. Either that or I would feel that my whole view of parenting had changed overnight which I think would be v stressful and worrying too... Have you really just abandoned your previous views with no qualms/upset overnight? It's not that I want you to be upset or anything but I find it odd! Why do you think you were so anti smacking as to resist for almost 7 years but suddenly see it as necessary? Has ds really become so very different just recently? Please tell me to f off if you don't want to answer any of this, btw! I'm genuinely interested though as I think your position must be fairly unusual. Most people seem to firm up their views on smacking/time out/locked doors one way or the other by the time their kids are toddlers and pretty much stick to that.

On a more practical note, have you had enough good times with him recently? I do think it's crucial to be able to spend loads of time with our kids and playing/doing stuff with them and really trying to see things from their point of view as well as trying to set essential boundaries. Hard to do that sometimes though. Money and time can be scarce. And does your disability make it harder to do some stuff with him sometimes as well? Not sure what sort of disability you have but whatever it is it can't always be easy with a lively 7 year old to look after. Is there any support available for you?

I really do find that a lot of the time discipline stuff goes wrong when the relationship between me and my boys feels a bit out of kilter and we've temporarily forgotten how to be together properly. I think this is why early summer holidays when we are all (adults and kids) tired and working out how to be with our families 24/7 again is a classic time for everything going pear shaped, imo/e.

Anyway, I hope you guys keep on having a nice time together and this eventually turns into the super summer.

yes I agree jimjams. It is hard when you are on your own alot clumsymum - does his behaviour get worse when dh is away?

Did the locking in the room thing work though. We REALLY resisted shutting ds1 in his room at night after ds3 was born. We use travel barriers one on top of the other. I mean we really wrestled with that, it felt very wrong. After yet another night of chasing him hyper round the house at 11pm I said to dh we had to try it (eating at 11.30 pm was no fun). I sobbed doing it. it felt so wrong. And his response? He took one look, came over prodded the contraption, said "aye aye" (night night) and climbed into bed. Have had no problems since that night getting him to bed (although touching wood madly of course)

Sometomes the things that seem the most awful can work because they give the child space, or a clear message, or time to calm down. I don't think anyone would advocate traumatising a child (and if ds1 had repsonded very begatively to our gates, it would have come down), but if it works to provide breathing space then it can't be all bad.

I think that's a bit different, tbh, jj. It's not a punishment for one thing- more a way of reinforcing a "bedtime" message. We had a stairgate at the boys door for a while when they first went into beds for similar reasons. We could cope with their pattern of bouncing about for a bit at bedtime then crashing out as long as it did not entail them zooming about the flat. And they liked it. Shutting their gate became part of their bedtime routine.

30 minutes in your bedroom with the door locked because you've behaved badly is quite different, I think. I would feel that things were going badly wrong if that was a routine strategy in my house- I'd be wondering if my child had undiagnosed special needs or if I had serious family life stresses that needed to be addressed if that was the only thing that seemed to work.

I can see what you are saying. I think routine would be a problem (for the same reaons I have more or less scrapped time out with ds2, it used to wrok well when it was happening once every 6 weeks, when it became regular I decided we had to have a new strategy.)

I think it is very difficult if nothing seems to be working though. But bouncing ideas off someone so you know your strategy before you hit any problems really helps I think. Also I've found focussing on core areas, so deciding which behaviours are a problem and tackling them. Whilst remembering to praise as frequently as possible for anything you can find to praise (will have to try and dig out research reference for that- was quite striking).

I can't leave this thread, I feel for clumsymum.

clumsymum, is your ds physically stronger than you? When my ds1 - who is also 7- kicks off I can't physically handle him at all (and I'm not disabled). I think if that is the case then getting him into his room to let off steam might be good (I tend to let ds1 fly, and try to put my hand in places so that he won't damage his head, but I don't try to physically restrain him). Also reinforces the message that you won't tolerate physical behaviour directed towards yourself. But at 7 they can be too big to handle.

Although I also agrere with SP, that used too often it is likely to stop working.
Is there anyone professional you could go through this with so they can suggest strategies?

Yes- it does like things have been tough, cm. Is it regularly hard work or have the last couple of weeks been unusual? If you think this is more than a blip it might well be worth having a chat with a health/social work professional about your boy.

Clumsymum, sorry nothing of use to add, but just wanted to voice my support. You know your child best.

Clumsymum I am right behind you on the "reasonable punishment for poor behaviour takes on equal importance as praise for good" bit. I abandoned things like sticker charts sometime ago as I felt we were getting to the stage when DD was weighing up what was in it for her to behave in a particular way and wasn't learning that there are a number of things in life that you just have to do, no discussion, no treats. I have made the decision that I won't smack but that is my choice.

I agree that they do get very tired at the end of term and cutting a little bit of slack can be appropriate but not to the extent where you are getting the behaviour from him you've been getting. I think you are right to clamp down, I might have done it slightly differently but that comes down to individual personalities. I think as martianbishop says, you need to have confidence in your parenting abilities as the minute you have doubts and/or are not consistent, children pick up on it.

If it works for you Clumsymum, then you go for it.

Just a point about people shouting. If anyone, manager/customer/staff started to shout at me at work, I would not be concerned about finding out why initially. I would ask them to leave until they had calmed down and then deal with it. If someone started to shout at me in my home I would do the same and ask them to leave.

Obviously you can't ask a 7 year old to leave so locking them in their room until they have calmed down is a very good idea in my opinion. But I am not an advocate of softly softly parenting to badly behaved children.

As far as I can see, people who were bought up in the 50's seem to have far more manners & respect than some of the younger generation I come across, evan people my own age. whether that is because they were dealt with more severely or not I can't say. But when I go to places where there are other children I am totally shocked by the amount of children who don't use manners (small children). Surely this is the begginning of good behaviour & treating others with respect

I think putting him in his room to cool down is a good idea but not hitting him-ever Sorry

personally I think the whole fifties slant has a lot to be said for it..

• that the food eaten in those days would be less junk food crap and so better behaved kids as result. -Kids were punished for their bad behaviour and rewarded for the good. -theyre just kids, you got to keep it simple!!!

Surely this is just common sense ?

Isnt our society going a little bit bonkers about all this?

If you watch any intelligent mother animal she will discipline her young gently too. How else are they going to learn whats right or wrong ? and I would far rather it was me that taught them than someone else outside our home.
(rant over !)

Isn't it a bit contradictory to say that things were better in the 50s? I am sure every generation thought previous generations better behaved. We tend to look at the past with rose-tinted glasses. Anyway, Dr. Spock was the leading childcare expert of the 50s and compared to Supernanny he was a right pushover.

Really interesting thread. Clumsymum, i feel for you. As they get older, it can be difficult to find discipling techniques which work. I have one boy who is so sensitive that he cries and is chastened by me saying 'I'm dissappointed with your behaviour'' and another for whom we have had to completely transform our parenting style
I see a lot of the softly softly stuff from mums at preschool and on some children it is completely ineffectual and those children go off to school, already with bullyish tendencies and a knowledge that they can throw their weight around, either physically or emotionally and no-one will do anything other than say things like ''that's not very nice dear, look poor Mary is crying now...etc etc''.
I have always attempted not to shout or smack either of my boys (but I have smacked him once this year - having managed 8 years without ever doing it.'' But the shock of it calmed us both down...though we did have a big discussion about it afterwards)
It's very easy for those with young, malleable children to judge. But I don't advocate smacking a child. I think there are other ways of punishing unnacceptable behaviour. The difficult bit is you find them through trial and error, while trying to be consistent in your approach. Now, that's a challenge

Thanks those of you who are supporting my approach, and those who have criticized too. I did ask for comments.

Jimjams, thanks particularly for your comments. DS is on fish-oils, we have just changed the brand this week to avoid aspartame, and I am watching carefully to monitor results. Problems at school have resulted from his controlling behaviour, and a tendency to hurt other kids for the 'fun' of it. They say he has little empathy for the other children. I believe (having thought VERY long and hard) that it is primarily attention seeking. I had a 2 hr. meeting with his teacher, next year teacher, and the SENCO just before the end of term. I am determined that he starts next term in the knowledge that hurting other children (or anyone) is not acceptable, and there will be SEVERE sanctions imposed at home if I hear about it happening.

I did not take the decision to smack him without thinking about it. I have smacked once, and used the room locking for 2 days, and suddenly he seems to have a bit more respect for my wishes. This morning he did not wake us before the appointed time, but played quietly after he got up. He played with us and chatted while we got up and dressed, then put his toys away when I asked. I've had no cheek, and no tantrum this morning. I've praised him to the skies, and he has choosen what we are going to do this afternoon (take him and his bike to the park).

This might be a short-lived response to our sudden 'tougher' approach, but we'll see. Personally today our house is happier and calmer. Daddy and I will be much more able to give him our positive attention in response to his positive behaviour.

And whoever said something about having nice times together, we do whenever we can. The one reason that I've decided to get tough now is so that I can get him 'on side' to enjoy the rest of the summer together.

Oh and whoever said you can't control your child's behaviour. Well, I disagree. As parents, it is our job to control and channel our children in the right direction while they are young. That is part of teaching them the right way to behave. And the softer way of doing it doesn't work with my strong, wilful boy. I'm really pleased for those of you who have children for whom it does, your lives must be sooo much easier.

If you are interested, I'll keep a 'diary' here over the next few days (you're not obliged to read it of course). I'm still interested to hear from anyone else who may have views.

please tell me whats wrong with omega fish oils .Should I cahnge them and if so what for ?and are they the same price roughly as the omega ones? and last question I first bought the Haliborange one but they didnt have the right stuff in (cant remember what its called )The % was too low or something . Sorry for the highjack .

omega fish oils are fine- just be careful of eye-Q brand if your child is at all prone to hyperactivity. If he is then its a safer bet to get ones which are omega 3's only (rather than a mix of omega 3's and 6's).

Do you think its attention seeking or reaction seeking. DS1 pinches people sometimes to watch their interesting reactions. Usually confined to adults, but the louder they shout the better as far as he's concerned. He's non-verbal autistic so obviously not the same as your case, but I think its important to distinguish between whether he wants reaction or attention.

thanks for that . He is not hypa so I should be ok .

clumsymum - your being disabled does make a huge difference imo (just in case my post made you feel guilty!) the naughty step only works in our house because dd knows I have more energy than her to put her back when she runs off. if I am shattered, then I put her on the second step and shut the baby gate - I don't suppose that would still work at 7?

re tiredness - with ds, I have to put him to bed earlier. ironically that often makes him wake up later and certainly improves behaviour the next day. but like yours, he won't go back to bed once he's up any more.

but maybe the fish oils will help. I hope so.

JimJams, Hadn't thought about the difference between attention-seeking and reaction seeking. How do I know the difference?

I have had to persuade dh that when ds winds him up (often has happened over the last few months when dh is home at weekends) that dh needs to calm his response, as I have believed it's dh's reactions he has sought.

I think that's quite often the case when you have a dh who is away a lot (or doesn't see the kids regularly). If dh has been away, both mine (after the initial love-in) will start playing up specifically for him (obv to get a reaction/attention).

It's difficult to tell. With ds1 it becamne obvious because if someone gave a nig yelp and shout he would immediately home in on then and go for a frenzied pinching session. Amrching off slamming doors got him going as well. On the odd occasions when he;s done it to siblings its to get them to scream loudly so he can see inside their mouths (again fairly obvious).

Anyway the point being if it is reaction seeking then we have found the best approach with ds1 is to say "no" but very neutrally, look really bored with it, give almost no response at all, look fed up and don't bite. I also found that a quick out the room shut the door (in his case for 10 seconds- but I don't think that would work with a normally developing child) worked providing it wasn't used too often.

Again it is different with a cihld like ds1 as he can't talk back for starters, and eveything is much more transparent. But if you think it might be reaction seeking then I would say tone down the response, be firm, but calmly firm, and pick your battles iyswim. Oh and praise and give lots of positive reaction for good things.

Bloody hard though.