discipline?

[Evita]

How do mumsnetters go about 'discipline'? I've got a 17 month old who's generally pretty good but is just beginning now to 'test boundaries'. If I go into a shop with her instead of her just looking around and pointing she now tries to grab everything and yells when she wants something I don't want to buy her. I've always wanted to avoid doing endless 'no no no' with her and have opted to try to distract her instead. But I also feel I need to start being firm (I'm a v. soft mom so far, I've never shouted at her). She poured my glass of water over the sofa today after my telling her over and over not to. So I tried to 'tell her off' but she just laughed, then when she realised I wasn't joking she burst into tears and ran into my arms for a hug. I felt really mean.

I would take the glass away pronto if I suspected it might go over the sofa, personally. Prevention is better than cure and all that. I have no worries about very rarely going ballistic - it's much more memorable that way. I think telling is overrated for 17month olds - actions speak a lot louder than words at that age. I don't do 'discipline' - I try to anticipate problems, I make sure ds has lots of food, water and sleep at the right times (which has a miraculous effect IMO) and save my 'mummy was vewy cwoss' stuff for hitting. I'd stay with the distract, ignore, praise stuff for everything else myself.

I would take the glass away pronto if I suspected it might go over the sofa, personally. Prevention is better than cure and all that. I have no worries about very rarely going ballistic - it's much more memorable that way. I think telling is overrated for 17month olds - actions speak a lot louder than words at that age. I don't do 'discipline' - I try to anticipate problems, I make sure ds has lots of food, water and sleep at the right times (which has a miraculous effect IMO) and save my 'mummy was vewy cwoss' stuff for hitting. I'd stay with the distract, ignore, praise stuff for everything else myself.

My dd, as you know, is the same age as yours and, like yours, is just beginning to test boundaries. I went through this with older ds (now 4) and this is what I learned from him:
--limit "no's" at this age, so that when "no" is used it actually carries some weight
--PREVENTION wherever possible (thanks, Aloha.)
--reward for good behavior (cuddles, praise, and, if you believe in it, a food treat if, for example, she kicks up a storm about being strapped into the buggy but eventually relents. Some might call that bribery [ahem])
--emphasize use of please and thank you whenever possible even from this age. My son STILL doesn' t alwas remember, but at least I know I've been instilling it since Day 1, and one day it will stick.
--Ignore non-serious bad behavior, or at least thwart desired effect. For example, if dd throws her drink again & again from her highchair, don't keep picking it up for her because that's what she WANTS you to do.

My dd, too, gets upset when told off. More than ds ever did. A girl thing?

As they get older, in the realm of 2.5, they can start to understand reason and have a better sense of the difference between good & bad behavior. I waited until then to worry about "discipline" in the true sense of the word.

If they start getting into repetive dangerous behavior, for example repeatedly attempting to run into an open fire, I would then go as far as a "time out" of sorts, for example putting her in a highchair facing the wall, so she associates that behavior with a punishment. But not for non-dangerous behavior, IMO.

Agree with Aloha

Example - this evening my 4 year old son would not go to bed. Far too hyper. I tried getting cross with him which he thought was hilarious. He's non-verbal autistic so reasoning with him is not an option (as it isn't really with a 17 month old). In the end I dug out an old stair gate and put that across the bedroom so he couldn't get out and go charging around. Within 10 mins he had settled down and was going to sleep. Prevention is far better.

Also if a child is doing something and you want them to stop- then tell them "last time", or count down "10, 9 , 8" etc- they soon get the idea. Works on auti ds1 but also my 2 year old

DS2 is quite into comics. If we go for a big supermarket shop he's allowed one (he reads it in the trolley so keeps him quiet). If not I just tell him to out it back, and if he throws a wobbly I usually laugh and scoop him off the floor/ It's usually forgotton very quickly- especially with distracton.

Distraction and avoidance are ime far more successful than attempting a head on no.

I agree with Aloha, and personally I tend to avoid certain situations like shopping (unless only need a few items)and going places where I know there will be trouble. It's only for a short period of time......I try to make life as easy for myself as possible basically.

I am watching this thread with interest to pick up tips (DD 18 months today! )

Distraction is better than discipline imo, when I can see that ds is going to go for something that I'd rather he didn't or is going to be in a situation where there will be things that I'd rather he didn't grab and squidge then I talk, sing, count and just say look at this and that. I give him books and a teddy to hold in his buggy so that his hands are already full.....

Also instead of saying no I often just change the subject with wouldn't you rather do ....... usually the answere is "ess" and off he goes. Just like pointing a wind up mouse in another direction when it hits the sofa.

This is all really helpful, thanks.

Aloha, prevention is the best, I agree, and included in that is good sleep, full tummy etc. Actually the only times dd is seriously not cooperative is when she's tired. But that does happen sometimes and so then has to be dealt with.

expatkat, sound advice! I do avoid no's in general. And as for throwing things off the high chair have now got her to either eat something or if she doesn't want it to give it to me and not drop it, which I thought was rather miraculous after months of chucked food and drink!

jimjams, I'll try that counting thing, that sounds good, I've never thought of that.

FairyMum, it's not always possible to avoid things though, is it? Sometimes I have to take a bus journey (dd's particular hated event) and keep her strapped into the pram. It can be hellish. Weird how some kids zone out on the bus and others get really fed up.

Gumboot, yes, it works sometimes for me, the distraction thing. But my little darling has a particularly good memory so even if she'll accept the distraction temporarily, after a moment or two she's back after the thing she wanted originally!

I realise that 17 months is really too young to start giving explanations. But sometimes I get a sense of how frustrating 'rules' must be. For instance how can dd work out that it's ok to walk around home / playgroup and pick up and fiddle with whatever she wants, yet when she's walking outside she can't pick up stones and dirt (which becomes far more appealing of course as it's 'forbidden'. And why do I say she's clever for pouring water from one plastic cup to another in the bath, but 'naughty' if she pours it on the sofa? I'm just a bit confused as to how to make these distinctions clear to someone so young.

Of course you can't avoid everything, but avoid it if you can. I am thinking do your clothes-shopping alone on a Saturday and one of you can pop down to Sainsbury's after kids bedtime. My point is that if you realise it is just a phase which will pass, then it's easier to organise your life to make things easier for everyone. As opposed to thinking you will never ever be able to shop in Sainsbury's with your DD.

BTW, totally sympathise with bus-situation. I fly with my DS (2.6) every other month and if you think toddler on bus is bad, then try toddler on aeroplane......

From my experience explaining why not to pour water on the sofa would be because you'll get a wet bottom when you sit down again but in the bath as we all know it's not the same as your bums already wet

I'd explain the why's and where fors if it makes you feel better, I sometimes do ie lets not turn on the hot tap the water will be hot and it will scold your hands and then kiss ds' hands just to re-inforce, followed by lets go and play with the bricks or something else that I know ds enjoys lots.

Ds is nearly 2 and still goes back to things that he thinks he would realy enjoy to do (even if mummy isn't so impressed) but I just continue with the distraction or get the hoover out and let him play - but the hoovers saved for special occasions..

I do let ds pick up stones and twigs when we're out, their not going to be any less clean than those at nursery, instead of letting him put them in his mouth we put what ever under the buggy and ds usually leaves it there until I throw it all away - it's a bit like walking around with a garden under the buggy but always intresting to find out what got ds' attention.

Evita - I think you are totally right re: instances where behaviour is allowed and where it isn't. It must be confusing. So agree with all who have cited prevention - if my ds drew all over the walls I would feel it was my fault for letting her get hold of the pen/crayon in the first place...I don't believe in 'bad' ehaviour at this age - they are just exploring, testing cause and effect.

BTW I take my ds out of the pushchair on the bus and she sits on my knee. She loves it (and gets so much attention she is amused for the whole journey).

I'm glad you said that about young toddlers not being deliberately naughty, Jimmychoos because my mom thinks I'm the softest touch going. I feel as though I can see why my dd's after what she's after and how strange it must be for her to learn so many contradictory rules. I tend to think she's just v. enthusiastic and curious and with so many new things to play around with, who can blame her for her experiments? My dp gets dd out of the pram on the bus too but I daren't as I'm always afraid we'll go flying into something and I'll drop her. Also she's not into sitting still on my knee unless there's an obliging passenger to keep her attention, so it then ends up with me battling to keep her from attempting to toddle up and down the bus aisle.

Alas, Gumboot, my dd puts EVERYTHING into her mouth so I still have to be a bit careful about sticks and stones especially as I live in a v. irresponsible dog-owner inner-city area.

So you guys think in general that it's not until after 2 that you can really expect to do any serious disciplining? So I don't need to buy a hard wood cane just yet? (only joking of course!!)

Evita, I don't know what it is about the older generation. When ds was this age, he (obviously) used to try to pull down all of mil's and fil's within-reach statuettes & antiquey things. I could never understand why they didn't just put them out of reach for our visit; whereas they could not understand why I was not smacking him for "corrective" reasons. So I, too, am made to feel I'm the softest touch going whereas I feel my attitude towards discipline is rather sensible and normal.

Evita - you sound great to me and your dd a poppet. The only 'disciplining' I would do at this age is removing your dd from 'the scene of the crime' if distraction doesn't work. Smile politely but ignore your Mum!

Aloha is still a god IMO - great advice

Tone of voice works really well to - keep your normal neutral voice when talking and telling her things that aren't too bad but have a cross voice - my DD knows when I am a bit cross as I look exasperated and try and explain stuff but when the cross voice comes in she really knows that she is testing me or has been naughty!!

DP has been working on his cross voice and DD is actually listening to him at last rather than just ignoring him (mind you if he ever used the cross voice he has for shouting at the telly during football I think both myself and DD would wet ourselves with fear - he turns into Ron Atkinson!!)

Can atheists be gods?

ok, I agree with pretty much everything on here, but I think I am reaching a stage where a more formal 'discipline' strategy is required. Ds1 is now 27 months and quite a livewire. We generally follow a positive reinforcement strategy, but lately he's developed behaviour that I really think requires a more explicit response in terms of 'punishment' (horrible word, I suppose I mean enforcing negative consequences for unacceptable behaviour). Top of the list of bad behaviours is a tendency to hit and snatch things from other children. Less serious misdemeanours include repeatedly doing things I have asked him not to (deliberately - I try ignoring/distraction but this is becoming less tenable as a response) and doing potentially dangerous things like running off/playing with plugs. I know already what you are going to say (avoid trigger situations, ensure adequate sleep/food etc etc) but just want to know what strategies people use for the slightly older child who is less innocent than an 18 month old!!
(btw ds1 is not the child from hell at all, just a normal toddler coping with the arrival of a new sibling...)

Blu - yes than can definately Send me your email addrss - I am trying to find it as I have a picture of DD and she is so beautiful (if I say so myself!!) I am trying to send it to everyone I have spoken to but can't find your address!!

(Prufrock and Susiewong - I tried to send it to you and it bounced back!!)

The phrase 'The Stairs' always worked in our house - DD even started doing stuff and going and sitting there herself!!)

I think you are right to pick your battles and concentrate on the dangerous or agressive behaviour. I have a rule for myself to just check exactly why it is I want my children to stop doing something, before I intervene. But when needed, I used the ask once nicely, once more firmly, then time-out approach for my ds (now 4, but have been doing this for a long time).

Any aggressive behaviour also means an immediate time out. Running off would mean being strapped into the buggy for the same time-out period.

But as you say, needs to be combined with lots and lots of praise for the good stuff.

yes, something like time out is what I think we need - but where exactly do you put them? Especially if outside the home? (ds1 tends to hit when in large groups) ALso, is there a danger that it rewards the behaviour with attention? (the main reason I've not started doing this is that I think swooping over immediately and taking ds elsewhere is probably just the sort of reaction that he might be looking for...

Goodness, listening to all your thoughful replies to Evita's question, I feel like the crappest mother in the world!

DD (18 mths) often has tantrums. Recently its beacuse she keeps 'playing'with the DVD player (we are now on our second). And becuase of this, and sometimes other 'battles' (not wanting to sit in pushchair etc - I NEVER take her clothes shopping, but had to go monday to buy a new suit for interview - nightmare) she is doing the 'throwing herself backwards' thing.

She is soo adorable and I love her to bits and the fun we have FAR outweighs the bad bits, but it does make me feel crap.

elliot, my ds's best friend at that age used to behave aggressively at the playground & is now, at 4, the loveliest of boys. Whenever he hit another child his mother or nanny would make him immediately say sorry to the "victim" and give the child a hug or stroke, and then it was immediately in the pushchair, strapped in, for 5 minutes or so. (Similar to what Jimmychoos suggested.)

mum2ela, why do you feel like a crappy mother? Because your dd has tantrums? They all do at 18 months--and it's just the beginning, so hold on for a bumpy ride that will only start to peter off in about a year's time. (Though 4yr-old ds STILL has the occasional one, as he did the morning.. .aaaargh.) Or are you more worried about the way you're handling them? I think avoiding shopping is right on; lots of mums come to that same conclusion. It just depends on the kind of child you have. I'm sure you're doing great. At this stage it's sort of trial & error, however you get through the day short of child abuse. All the suggestions below are just guidelines, really.

expatkat I think its the way I am handling them, even though I know how I should be handling them, I always do it wrong at the time.

I think its just one of those days.