Please help, I'm at the end of my tether.

[Mystory]

Firstly I've name changed, I've been here 10yrs but tonight I don't have the mental strength to have a flaming under my regular name if that's what I'm going to get.

I'm tired, sick and tired of my kids behaviour.

I have a 9 and 7 yr old, both boys.

They're spoilt.

I do keep rules strict, I have consistency with sanctions for bad behaviours, and yet, they couldn't give any less of a toss what I say or do.

This year we cut back on gifts for Christmas, they don't treat stuff well at all so I wasn't going to bother showering them with loads of gifts. They got a few well thought out things each.

But still, I've gone upstairs after sending them to bed, they were messing around, play fighting.

I've found their bedroom (that I tidied yesterday and they tidied again today) has been trashed and DS1's game he got for Christmas has been removed from the box, the box is destroyed and the game is nowhere to be seen.

At that point I left the room and walked into the garden for genuine fear of losing it.

I. Don't. Know. What. To .do. Anymore.

I'm tired and at the end of my tether with them.
I feel ill with stress, they simply don't get it.

They treat everything like rubbish, they treat each other like rubbish, they fight, they're destructive. They don't care about anything enough to use as a sanction.

Please, help me. I need this to stop, I'm really concerned that I'm either going to walk out and not come back or have a break down.

DP is here but is in the same boat, he's all out of ideas too.

Too much stuff? Would they care about their things if they only had a few?

Ask your DH to take them away for a day and sort their stuff out. A bag for rubbish, a bag for the charity shops and a box for keepers. Choose 5 keepers for each child. 5. Or, even 3. Once a week they may trade a toy for one in the box but the total must remain the same.

Hmmm my 8 year old (youngest of 4) is hideous for having a messy room but we make her tidy it up - we will "help" but she has to actually be involved in tidying. They don't appreciate their things and yet you are the one tidying them up etc.

Less is more. I would seriously box up all but 3 toys/games each and they will have to earn any more by "good" behaviour using some sort of chart?

Also you could consider making them choose 50% to give away to charity?

I'm willing to give it a go, although they don't really have a lot of stuff, I go through the bedroom once a month and gut it because they break everything.

They both wanted a tablet for Christmas, they got a cheap £30 one each and 3-4 other things (board games, small furby, football shirt) both tablets have been broken in some way, they are still playable but only charge in the computer rather than in the wall because they were so rough with them.

There room is small so there isn't room for lots.

They had separate rooms but begged to share. Originally we were going to have DS1 in the box room (it's tiny!) and DS2 in the bigger room with the baby when he needs to move from our room.

But the begged and begged to share. I'm wondering if it was a mistake to let them.

We have 4 kids aged almost 6-12. 3 girls, 1 boy. Please don't feed me any lines about girls being easier than boys. Life is constant round of getting them to tidy up after themselves, referring and managing their behaviour. They play fight, squabble and mess around All The Time. I think this is normal.
These are the things that help keep them a bit calmer.
-Getting them outside for at least an hour every day. Even if it is persisting down with rain- we have dogs that need to be walked and this helps.
-Make sure they are drinking enough and getting enough fruit and veggies

• make sure they get enough sleep. No screens in the bedroom, no video games for an hour before bed.

-Have some screen free time every day -try and give them as much 121 time as possible

• try and say 5 positive things to them for every negative thing ( this is hard work but makes a difference)

-Listen to them when they are talking. Look at them and make eye contact when they are talking, even if they are whinging about their siblings. -get them to help around the house. Even just little things- take dishes to bench, set table, feed pets, help tidy up etc.

The most important thing is the first though. Whenever my kids are really badly behaved it's because they haven't had enough exercise!

If I don't tidy it and have a regular clear out of ripped up paper, broken pencils, socks stuffed under a rug etc they just wouldn't do it. They stay in the room tearing chunks off each other until I have to step in, then it would take a whole day of full tantrum from one or both of them about it, their idea of tidying is to shove everything behind a drawer and claiming it's done.

Okay so if they break "everything" I would give them only 2 things each. That includes console games.

I assume you do have enough easy to use/suitable storage for what they do have in terms of clothes and belongings?

Do they have chores, OP? Do you have a chart? Laundry, dishwashing, cleaning, hoovering, etc?

We've been through reems of storage systems, at the moment it crates and shelving, plenty for both of them and a huge clothes storage area for each of them.

There is no excuse.

They don't have set chores but are always asked to take out plates, cups etc and fetch a bottle for their brother or hang up all the coats/book bags etc.

We had star charts for a long time but after a few weeks they got bored and stopped caring.

When taking things away to leave them with just 2-3 things each, does this include books? They have lots but don't read them

I think they'd just play with the baby's toys if I were to remove theirs.

Have you read 'Siblings Without Rivalry', OP?

I second the exercise thing.

My kids, aged 9,7,4 misbehave when they are overtired and when they haven't had enough exercise.

Put the tablets away they can have them if they behave and are calm enough to handle them properly.

But really the key is to wear them out physically and to be prepared to be incandescent with rage is they push enough buttons. And I don't mean physical punishment, I mean cold fury, shouting whatever. They need to know you are in charge and be too tired to want to fight it.

I will certainly up the exercise. I think it would do is all good.

They do play football everyday at school and once a week after school so they keep busy but I can always squeeze in more I guess.

No I haven't read That book but I certainly will, they can't even sit in the back of a car without squabbling, even with rousing games of I spy and things like that.

Yes take everything away, minimum of clothes required and 3 "items" of interest each.

Swimming is your best bet for exhausting them. Real swimming though, not playing in the water. It may be worth taking them daily if you can. 20 lengths minimum? Bicycle rides, borrow a neighbour's dog to walk, etc.

Aim for 2 hours physical activity per day as a minimum.

I will do what I can with the physical stuff.

DS1 has cystic fibrosis so he can't do a lot some days, swimming is tricky in that respect it can be as harmful as it is good if he's under the weather but I will make sure there is opportunity to get active.

I was going to say the same as others, regarding the 5 toys only rule.

We have 3 boys, and a rented storage container (no garden for a shed, or garage for storage and none in the house either), which houses most of their toys in big plastic boxes. For us, it doesn't include books, as they read avidly and have never mistreated books. If they did mistreat them, they'd not have open access to them.

They have a small number of toys each (started out with 5, but have been able to become more lenient over time) in their own toy box under their cabin beds. They are allowed to swap toys regularly, but not weekly, as it takes time to get to the storage container. They often ask for 'themed' toys to come out, so all the dinosaurs, all the knights and castles, etc, so that they can play together and with each other's toys.

Another thing that strikes me from what you've said is that it sounds like it's when they are unsupervised that the trouble starts.
Do they spend a lot of time playing alone in their rooms? Is that when the trouble starts? Maybe it would be better if they are allowed to bring a toy or play set from their room and into the living room or kitchen/dining room to play with.

My children spend a lot of time with us, all together, and we pick up on any inappropriate or unwanted behaviours immediately, so that they are well aware of what's expected of them.

When tidying, I used to sit with them and talk them through it, teaching them how to do it effectively. Now, I no longer tidy up with or for them, as they can now do it by themselves at ages 6,7 and 10. If they don't tidy up properly, they will have to stick at it and miss any other activities until it's done. If they haven't tidied before tea, for instance, they will put on their PJs after tea, tidy and go straight to bed (there is a rule of no toys after tea-that's the time to draw, write, read or watch something I like enlightening on the TV). By bedtime, anything not put away is thrown away. In the bin. For good.

To be honest, if I went into my boys' rooms and found things that had been deliberately broken or ripped, I'd take the lot away, especially new tablets that are already broken due to rough treatment-they'd have gone back in their boxes at the first sign of trouble.

Oh, and as for squabbling in the car- all three of mine have, on separate occasions, had to walk home with either me or DH whilst the others carried on in the car, because they've not listened to warnings about their behaviour towards their brothers. They are now very well behaved in the car and DH and I can have a conversation as we drive!

Perhaps you should split them up into different bedrooms for your sanity...

I used to get my youngest to nap in a travel cot in the small bedroom during the day so the others could still play in the larger bedroom. Added bonus was that she would sleep in the travel cot anywhere

I also find the "no pudding until your bedroom is tidied" very effective in focusing the youngest on getting on with the task in hand!

Huge amounts of sympathy coming your way-it sounds beyond frustrating and you've done so well for hanging on in there.

If the option exists, I'd be getting them into separate rooms as quickly as possible. It seems that they rile each other up (as boys tend to do) which leads to the destructive behaviour. There's no real upset when things are broken because "his is broken too". If they were in separate rooms, with separate belongings, they may get more upset when their individual item is broken.

As they are so desperate to share, could you use this as a bargaining tool? They could "earn" back their joint bedroom by showing you how well they keep their own rooms clean , tidy AND by how well they respect their toys(which should be, as OPs suggest, limited) No improvement= no sharing. I realise this isn't ideal with the new baby BUT it might work.

Lots and lots of exercise and not necessarily with each other-tricky to organise but a little independence from one another may be beneficial in improving their behaviour.

CF will make things more challenging OP. You can only do, what you can do. Write out a plan with your DH and give it a month. Keep what works, change what doesn't.

We don't keep any toys in bedrooms. They are all (very few) in the living room in baskets. I keep a mini toy library in the garage and change some on a Sunday. I keep bedrooms for sleeping in so they are very sparse (bed, dresser, lamp, mirror and a few books) Only 5 changes of clothes in the dresser too.

I find children are easily overwhelmed with too much choice.

Luckily we have a large loft that is shelved and boarded so I can put things up there if we take stuff away.

I'm not sure about the bedroom thing tbh.

If we so,it them again it will need to be a long term thing, we are about to purchase bunk beds for them to make more space, so I can either afford a bunk bed or 2 cabin beds.

Both children are determined they don't want to share with their baby brother (not that we're even started with getting him into his own room/cot yet only a year late!)

DS2 is the violent one, he will kick, punch for the smallest of reasons.
DS1 is the sly, tale teller of the 2 he will yell down to me that DS2 has hurt him when I can see them both far apart from each other.

The constant rivalry between them is silly, but anything deemed 'not fair' by either of them causes major melt down.

I'm a lot calmer now. I think I'll definitely take all but a couple of things out the bedroom and tell them why and I think I'll be setting a few firm chores for them to stick to (in different parts of the house!)

And I will be making sure exercise is top priority.

Make them share the box room in bunk beds - evil

I did have 2 of mine sharing the single room btw!!

Haha, that would go down well! Unfortunately I can fit a single bed and a chest of drawers in the room and that is it, no floor space or anything fancy like that, and the bed is against the window, DS2 would be out of it in seconds, I swear he's part mountain goat the way he climbs.

The bunk beds I want to get have unbuilt shelving with each bunk, so I will be able to tell them to pis 3 things to keep on those shelves and that will be it apart from drawers with 3 sets of clothes in.

Also, try talking about their behaviour with them and tell them how it makes you feel. Tell them how you'[d like them to behave and asked what you could do to help them behave that way.
Telling mine how they should behave is just asking for trouble, but discussing what is going on often helps all of us.
Family meetings with the notes pinned up on the fridge help as I can point to them and say 'we agreed that you would do THIS and THAT would happen if you don't'.

I just wanted to say thank you again for all your help last night, I read the book that was suggested, I does make an awful lot of sense.

I will hash out a plan with DP today about what we're going to do.

DS1has woken up in huge most. Irritable, antagonistic mood today so he's been sent to his room until he can start acting a bit more like someone we want to spend time with.

DP is going to take them for a run around a field, or similar later to get them out the house and moving.

Remember all dc have different personalities and some do respond better to differing styles/ways it is a case of finding out what works best in your house to an extent.

Also read "How to listen to kids will talk, and talk so kids will listen" you and your dp complete the exercises together.

I also send mine to their rooms if their mood is hideous until they can be civilised!!!!