5year old Serial attention seeker - what is she trying to tell me?! R We missing something?

[Onmyown3]

Please help if you can... (I know it's long trail but don't know how else to explain, out of options! :'(

I have 3 beautiful, well behaved children that I love with all my heart Aged 1,2 & 5.

Dh & I both work full time, I work from home and try and have at least an afternoon/ morning each week spent with each of our children as 1 on 1 time. I normally reward good behaviour with quality time ie - breakfast out with mummy, park, cinema etc.

I would really appreciate some helpful suggestions about our eldest & only daughters behaviour as she completely rules the house hold & dh, myself, school & even our health visitor are out of suggestions!

As our first child she was what some may described as very 'spoilt' both with attention & materially from the day she was born. This is my fault as when I went back to work I felt such guilt that I put all my spare salary and spare waking moment of my time indulging my daughter.

Today she is 5 & She is well behaved 70% of the time, intelligent, , thoughtful & generally very well mannered but can change in a split second - she can be manipulative, greedy, attention seeking (some of the scenes during one of her tantrums would not look out of place in a horror movie)

The main problem is this - my daughter will do anything for attention good or bad. I've tried reward charts, time out, ignoring it, talking to her, giving her more attention, rewards/ stickers etc, praising all gd behaviour and none of it works.

She will throw herself on the floor and say x person pushed her (including trying to play me and dh off against each other) pretend to 'trip' accidentally when it was done purposely at school, say she's not had meals in order to get extras, break things & blame it on others including at school, say teachers have scratched her, pretend she cant dress/ wash / walk, feed herself, say shes poorly, kick things, break furniture, smack younger siblings with objects when they won't play, kick the pet dog, tell tales on peers (literally all the time) & so on.

I thought this was a cry out for attention so i tried to spend more 1 on 1 time with her but it has not made a difference. The minute 1 on 1 has finished its bk to square 1.

Her behaviour at weekends is the worst as this is when all the family is together and she hates it when dh and I are talking she has to inject all the time & seems to be incapable of amusing herself for anything past 10 minutes. While our sons are very content no matter the situation.

We've noticed her behaviour is worst after going to a local nursery breakfast / after school club too.

Our daughter also has a funny relationship with food, she's always loved food but she will say whenever possible that she's missed meals etc - it can't be because she's hungry because she eats better than me! Ie - she has breakfast at home (porridge & toast) we get to breakfast club and they will ask if she needs breakfast - ill say no. While I'm handing over the other siblings I'll hear her say - it was only a snack - I need breakfast. We've also found her pinching food from her brothers bowl even when she has a full plate herself. I thought this was just normal child pickiness so havent made big deal over it. I'll let her pick some yogurts she wanted from super market and then she pretends she doesn't like them anymore and spits them under the table. On walk home from school I told her not to step in said dog dirt, she ignored me and stepped it in (but I put it down to being accident) I asked her to take shoes off before coming inside, when I turned back round from taking pushchair down she had wiped all the dog dirt of her shoes on to her coat, I asked why and she shrugged, she knew to was wrong.

I've even taken her to doctor but they said she's normal health child pushing boundaries.

I asked her today why she pretended to fall down at after school club - she says she didn't know she just wanted to.

Mine & dh main topic of conversation seems to be dd behaviour. We hoped it was just terrible 2's but she's now almost 6!

Our health visitor said to ignore it but that's not worked, school have spoken to her and she says she will be good and not do it again and back to square 1 before the day is out. Even when we ignore it after school club don't and I think that makes her worst. We've told them the health visitors comments but they treat every child same to be fair & won't just "ignore" the behaviour.

I'm so worried that this attention seeking could have terrible implications - what if one day someone did push her and because of all these fibs we didn't believe her & so on. It's such dangerous territory and I just don't know what else to try.

She isn't left out by her brothers as they all normally play together lovely. I've tried the reward chart where 3 gold stars = day with mummy 1 on 1.
I
I'm starting to feel like all I do is moan at her and say please don't do that, please do this, etc. I feel like I'm starting to be a completely different mother to the boys than I am to her. I hate dragging things on and having to pretend im cross with her all day. She respects her father far more than she does me, she always says she's been good & daddy will be proud but barely mentions me although dh is far more stern with her than I am. Dh says I don't see things threw and all I do is shout & then forgive so she doesn't take me seriously.

It's got to point where there is hardly a day that goes by without some kind of issue. Up until 6 weeks ago I struggled to get her to school if she didn't want to dress as she would tantrum and she's so strong I can't force her.

I treat all 3 the same as i can, obviously our 1 yro needs more attention sometimes but I feel like dd misses out she will be on time out while we all laughing & giggling. I feel so guilty but how do we get her to learn some of her behaviour isn't acceptable? Is there something she Is tryin to tell me that I'm missing?

Should I ignore it? Should I take her out of breakfast after school club completely? Should I try and spend even more time with her 1 on 1? But if I do is that classes as rewarding the bad behaviour??

If anyone can give me some serious helpful suggestions I would appreciate it. Thanks xxxxx

Have you been given any information about parenting classes by your HV? Maybe worth trying, perhaps you might be able to get some new ideas or input on what you could do.

I was also wondering how long you have stuck to your previous attempts to deal with the poor behaviour? It does sound like you have tried a lot of different methods. Maybe pick an approach that both you and your DH agree on and stick to it for a good long while? Your DH doesn't sound entirely supportive of you - it's really important that you are both on the same page when it comes to parenting. Can you find the time to sit down and discuss that he needs to support you and work as a team?

Also, lots of people on here recommend the book "How to talk so kids will listen" - I haven't read it myself, but it could be worth a try.

It strikes me that you haven't written what the consequences of bad behaviour are. You only mention rewards for the good.
What actually happens if she openly disobeys you and steps in dog shit? Then what happens if she deliberately wipes it on her coat?

She's old enough to know her actions aren't right, you've said that yourself. But she's got no boundaries to adhere to, she gets the mummy one to one anyway because of her behaviour.

Watching with interest. We have 3 placid boys and dd 7 like yours. They were all treated the same. Every day with dd is a battle, an exhausting battle. How did we do everything right with 3, and everything wrong with one.

I love my dd, but most of the time I don't like her . This is very very sad, but we have tried everything at one time or another and nothing has worked. My dd is also greedy...

Oh wow, well, there's a couple of things I can see which may be causing/exacerbating issues:

1. Quality time is not, in my opinion, ever an appropriate reward. I would hate my dc to feel that had to earn 1-1 with either me or my DH, but poor behaviour can cause the loss of treats (if you carry on doing xxx, we won't do yyy etc).

1. She's had 2 siblings arrive in very short order, that's a lot of upheaval and some children don't cope with that very well. I wouldn't be overly surprised to find that some of her attention seeking is rooted in insecurity. Who does bedtime and who does she feel more confident talking to? Bedtime stories and snuggles are a great time for heart to heart chats, at her age you or your dh will have to guide it but you might be able to get to the bottom of why she's doing things (children don't always see things the way we do, the adult might believe that they're giving plenty of attention and positive re-enforcement but the child may still feel pushed out - for example if you always did bedtime until her brothers were born but don't do bedtime now). She'll need to feel safe to tell the truth without getting into trouble, but if she's unhappy for some reason then you need to dig it out.

1. I feel like I'm starting to be a completely different mother to the boys than I am to her. If this is how you feel, there's a good chance that she's feeling the same way! This can lead to a negative cycle and nothing good will ever come out of it.

Other advice:

How to talk so kids will listen - I've never used it but many people swear by it.

Be very calm when dealing with bad behaviour, give as little attention as possible (ignore completely if possible) and administer warning or sanction without conversation. Discuss the situation when everyone is calm. Don't try and carry on being cross once a behaviour has been dealt with - it's over, any required sanction given and that's it...forgive and move on immediately.

You may also find that looking into books about children with high needs useful.

And also I understand the bit about are you rewarding bad behaviour. When they are difficult all the time, all the sanctions start to get wearing, but if you do nice things with them, then you do start to ask this. You can end up with wall to wall sanctions and no nice stuff.

I would spend the time with her that you think she needs, and not worry about rewarding naughtiness in this context. You can still inflict other sanctions. Not that they actually make any difference in my dds case....

We've had to be very clear with boundaries with DS - and if consequences are mentioned, they will be carried out if he's not doing what he should be. So - not getting dressed in the morning - well we've put all his school uniform, socks and shoes in the car and he's had to get in in his pants and get dressed on the school run.. if he doesn't eat his first course (or most of the protein and veg at least) he doesn't get any pudding... If you chose reasonable consequences, you can feel reasonable and still carry them out.

Get rid of the notion that she has been 'good' as per your post. Ignore all the behavior you don't like. Seriously. I have an attention junkie and this really worked. As you recognize, an attention junkie craves attention, and doesn't care if its negative. Get rid of all reward systems (read punished by rewards). Explain to her that a certain standard of behavior is expected purely because she is part of a family. If she does something that is unacceptable, make her deal with the consequences - dog dirt on coat = she cleans coat, no telling off, no comment. She steals food = she is not trusted to be near food, no telling off. She tells lies = tell her the story of the little boy that cried wolf.

What actually happens when she lies?

Posted in a rush. I really do sympathize. Read how to talk so kids listen.

And check whether she is happy at school.

Really happy.

When Ds was miserable he made us miserable. It was as simple as that.

Poor love. She's learned that she gets the attention she craves more easily from doing something 'naughty'.

It's not your fault, necessarily, just that she's obviously really in need of attention.

My DD3 can be like this, and once she's in the 'mode' she can't break out of it until she's pushed as far as she can go. It's awful and distressing - for everyone.

What would she do if you gently said 'do you need a cuddle' as she was starting to act up?

Also, could you try giving her loads of attention if she's pretending to hurt herself? DD3 is 4, but I go madly over the top when she shows me a tiny scratch: 'Oh no! Is it going to fall off...do you think we need to go to hospital?...no, ambulance I think..err not sure actually, might have to operate here. What are we going to dooo...' It's silly, but it give the attention that they are seeking and they soon forget about the minor injury.

I found a book called 'Happy Kids Happy You' really useful, and I attended the course that the author ran. It uses NLP to create a more positive home environment, and encourages parents to allow their child to take responsibility for their actions. For example, as someone above already suggested, your dd would have had to clean her own shoes and coat (with appropriate rubber gloves and disinfectant!). Another example would be to tell her once, and once only, in the morning that you expect her to be dressed by the time you need to leave for school. If she chooses not to then she has to leave the house at the stated time in whatever state of dress she has managed to get to.

Also, asking a child why they've done something often gets an 'I don't know'. Asking a child 'what are/were you trying to do?' gets much more out of them.

I'm really uncomfortable with you using your time as a reward for good behaviour. I believe it can lead to all kinds of emotional issues if time/attention is withdrawn as a punishment and given as reward. My dh has anxiety problems that stem from his parents emotionally withdrawing from him as a child. If his dm didn't think he had done well in school she would refuse to engage with him, unless it was mundane 'tea's ready' type stuff. She was warm and loving when he did well at school and would reward him with time together 1:1, i.e. a hot chocolate at a cafe or a MacDonald's. Dh is quite messed up about it, and gets very anxious if she displays disapproval through withdrawal of attention.

Don't know if any of this helps, bit I really do recommended that book.

Hi

Thanks for the replies

Hv hasn't given any advise on parenting classes just said to continue on what we are doing and to try and ignore any bad behaviour, she literally said if she has a tantrum ignore it completely, even step over her if needed as long as she isn't causing herself harm.

I've tried the reward chart for about 3 months,Time out has been used now for almost 3 years, I've tried Talking / explaining since she was 2 years old.

Dh is at work a lot, we hardly see him week days. So there isn't a great deal he can do. He has started waking dd in a morning and ensuring she is dressed before he leaves for work which is working so far (week into it)

Consequences of bad behaviour are usually time out or time out in her bedroom until she has calmed down if she is being too destructive (kicking, screaming etc) on time out. Then we talk about the behaviour, apologise and agree not to do it again and reasons why. Also for example - like her spitting yogurt on the floor I'll say because of spitting the yogurt on the floor your not having pudding after tea tonight & ask if she understands etc.

Orangeanddemons - I've heard a few people say similar. I did wonder if it could be girl thing but thought surely not. It's comforting that it's not just us experiencing this sort of behaviour - hope things improve for you too.

I note all the comments about quality time 1 on 1 time - all of them have the normal 1 on 1 time with me but try and use extra 1 on 1 time doing activities with us for good behaviour. Ie - if dd has been very good she will come horse riding with me or on a shopping trip, cinema, lunch etc.This was actually suggested as a good positive for rewarding good behaviour by dd old nursery that's why I started using it. (they said it wasnt recommended to use material objects or sweets or so on)

I do see your comments from a different perspective now tho - I've been becoming so confused, if she purposely wipes dog dirt all over her coat after she's done time out should I just be normal & forget about it. Or should I not read her, her bed time story that evening? Should I still play Barbies with her an hour later?

When I still do all the normal activities dh says I'm too soft and that's why she doesn't listen or respect me because she knows it's like she's done nothing wrong after 20 minutes.

While dh is the strong silent type and dd seems to have nothing but admiration for dh and always want his approval while she doesn't seen to care about mine?! :-/

I normally do bedtime stories but it's not every night now as it once was a couple of years ago but it's something I'll definitely make priority to do every evening again, see if it helps. It was nice and I do miss it myself.

Andro - I think below actually answers my question above - thanks

Be very calm when dealing with bad behaviour, give as little attention as possible (ignore completely if possible) and administer warning or sanction without conversation. Discuss the situation when everyone is calm. Don't try and carry on being cross once a behaviour has been dealt with - it's over, any required sanction given and that's it...forgive and move on immediately.

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One thing to add though -my dd has mentioned before (like if dh has asked if shes been good ill say yea but didnt get dressed for school this morning or so on) dd has said "yes butthat doesn't matter now mummy, that was earlier" should I just ignore this sort of comment?

Mistlethrush - I agree, I think the consequence of getting dressed in the car etc would actually work for my dd. I think it's me that would be horrified as well - id probably be just as mortified but I suppose it would probably only need her to try it once & she probably would always be dressed again after that.

We already do the same with pudding but if I say no to pudding it occasionally ends up with her knocking over the entire table / chairs etc demanding pudding (even after I've explained its because veg wasn't ate or etc & I would of normally asked dd 5+ times to eat said food)

I would then normally ask her to go time out in her room but I'll occasionally go up and her room will be trashed (we are talking wardrobe doors being ripped off, jumping up and down so much paint comes away from downstairs ceiling) in instances like this after she's calmed down I'll go up, explain again why she's not had pudding and ask her to clean her room. She will normally say no. And if I'm too defeated and it's within 45 mins til bed time I'll ask her to get ready for bed & to tidy in mornin. If she doesn't I'll just say I'm turning off the light in x minutes. In circumstances like this should this behaviour be ignored ? Should she still get a bed time story?

Im determined that all my children should go to bed with kisses and cuddles every single night no matter what but some evenings when she won't even get in bed my dh tells me to leave her to it. I normally sneak it and give kisses after she's fallen asleep & tuck her in etc. Is he right? Am I wrong?

Tiggyhop - yes will most definitely try to ignore all unwanted behaviour see if this helps. Instead of makings big deal of it all the time.

Funkyboldribena - It depends what she lies about - if she lies about havin breakfast at home and I'm not aware of it she will end up having a second breakfast at breakfast club .
If she lies and says X teacher has scratched her I'll ask her about it, I've even called school before now to ask / complain.
If she says she can't walk dependent on who she's with (ie if she's with grandparents) they will carry her, same with being dressed / fed etc.
Her behaviour changes to cater to who she is with, she's very smart she knows which grandparent / parent / school / after school club she can get what out of.

She's happy at school and after school club, I've already checked. I ask a couple of times a week if she prefers school v mummy days and most days (unless something special is happening) she is always glad she is going to school

Lougle - like the idea of being over the top. Will test it out at least, just hope it doesn't make her worst.

Not sure what she would do if offered her a cuddle BUT during one of her temper tantrums before I've tried hugging it out of her (i was worried she was going to hurt herself ) which did work (after I got the brunt of it)but I'll try again, its worth a try! but i did get worried if I did it every time she would stop just asking for a cuddle and just start throwing a Temper tantrum.

Puttheshelvesup - I think thats my down fall I give too many warning, usually I give a handful before i do anything to make doubly sure she understands but in all seriousness I think 1 chance should be enough.

Thanks x

I don't know if it's your cup of tea, but you might like to have a look at a website called Aha! Parenting. It has some different approaches to the use of reward/punishment.

I also think that you could maybe talk a little less to your daughter about her behaviour. Asking her whether she prefers school days to "mummy days" for example is just asking for trouble! I hope you didn't take her answer to heart - she couldn't possibly understand the emotion behind such a loaded question.

If school are having similar problems, it might be worth asking for a meeting with them to discuss strategies that they use in school. You could then look to apply these at home.

Does she love playing computer games? My DC were allowed to play on computers at an early age although I was extremely strict with what games they could play and for how long they were allowed to play. (I used timers)
They absolutely relished doing this and it meant I had an extremely powerful way of motivating them to be well behaved.
If they were naughty I would ban them from their screen time ( after a warning of course). I kept the dramatics out of it and was very consistant. The lure of the computer was enough for them to behave. ( obviously they were not perfect but I really think that their screen time significantly helped their behaviour. I had a little bit of flexibility as I would sometimes allow them to 'earn' back their computer time by doing chores (even when very young) or by good behaviour.

Have you found anything similar that you DD just loves that you could use for punishment? A TV show or a favourite game?

Also, I know its obvious but tiredness was, by far, the biggest cause of bad behaviour from my kids ( sorry if this has already been mentioned). If they were tired they were naughty and if they were well rested they were a lot less naughty.

Your HV sounds useless and your parenting tools sound like they might be getting a bit predictable for your DD.

I'd definitely recommend a good parenting course - they can really help you share ideas with other parents, come up with lots of new ideas to try and make you feel less worn down and start to feel more confident about handling what sounds like a very trying situation.

OP, I wish I had some answers for you, but I am still struggling with own 10yo DD who is very similar to yours. I have found nothing that works, and am watching this thread with interest. I really do feel for you, and wanted to let you know that I do not doubt the love you have for her.

I find with dd3 that she is really, when you step back, frightened of her own temper. Similarly, it's easy to show that we as parents are frightened (not fearing for our safety, but rather 'uh oh, if she goes into one now she'll never go to bed/we'll be late for school, etc.)

Deep down she wants you to take control and help her out of the corner she's got herself into.

I would try simplifying your approach:

1. Try to remove all within from your voice. Make it firm but kind and neutral. Dispassionate, bored almost. If she senses disapproval it will make her feel worse and prompt more extreme behavior. If she senses distress it will tell her she's getting somewhere.

2.Pick your battles. Work out what is negotiable, what is not. Forget the goal of generally wonderful child - small steps. The pressure to be good can be unbearable.

3.Only use consequences that are meaningful and you can absolutely stick to. Try to give her a way out of the situation without losing face. I.e she spits yoghurt on the floor: She gets the choice of wiping it up or no pudding.

1. count to 3. My Dd knows that if I get to 3, whatever I threatened WILL happen. End of story.

1. as she's calming down, acknowledge how angry, sad, upset she must have been. cuddle her and make sure she knows she is loved.

I would also make consequences very immediate - for some 5 yo, making them lose eg pudding later in the day is too far distant to think about - If they spit yoghurt they clean it up and sit nicely or have no more food for that meal (as they clearly didn't want it or they wouldn't be spitting it under the table).

I have really been thinking about this and do echo my sympathy from earlier. But I do think you need to reconsider the language you are using. If your DD asks if she has been "good" today, answer that she has been caring/thoughtful/kind/helpful - and give examples, please try and get away from this have I been good therefore I deserve a treat mentality. Your second post is really fixated on good behaviour and rewards and I really don't think they are working for you.

This is what I very humbly suggest:

1. Behaviour is not good or bad. There is normal 5 year old behaviour and there is unacceptable behaviour. Sit down with your DH and work out what behaviour is unacceptable and so unacceptable that it needs to be sanctioned with time out (5 mins in a designated time out area). I suggest hitting siblings, knocking over table/chairs, damaging furniture = time out. if she does it - you say "you are going into time out for [hitting]. You leave her there for 5 mins. You get her out of time out and say "you were in time out for hitting, it is not acceptable". Don't then mention the incident again. Incidentally, make your time out area not in her bedroom.

1. Impose consequences for all other behaviour, i.e dog dirt. She needs to clean it up. If she has a tantrum, ignore till the tantrum stops, then ask her to clean it up again. No other sanction. No discussion, no later punishment, just, you made the mess, please clear it up. Deliberately spilling food. "That is not acceptable, please clear up the mess." If she tantrums, ignore. Anything that has a rational consequence, impose it. So she won't wear socks= cold feet. She won't walk = she stays put (hard I know sometimes).

1. Please stop talking to her about her behaviour, and try to stop talking to your DH about it. She may overhear, its exhausting to keep discussing it. Have a strategy and stick to it (not being critical here).

1. Find ANY excuse to praise her for being helpful/thoughful/caring/kind - loudly exclaiming to DH "DD was such a great waitress today, she took all the plates to the side" "DD was so kind when DS hurt his knee". "Thank you so very much for helping me tidy this evening, DD, I couldn't manage without you".

1. Give limited choices, shall we tidy up before or after your bath? Which toy are you taking to bed with you?

1. Please forget about wanting her approval. Focus on having some fun.

1. Personally, I don't particularly like making children apologise for things.

1. Please don't make your children think that 1:1 time with you is the greatest thing - I happen to think that cements the notion that siblings=bad, being on own=good. Instead talk about how much fun she has BECAUSE she has these comedy brothers, how great it is to have brothers, what fun times they do/will have playing together.

1. I agree with the emphathising with her, just don't over discuss/analyse with her. So she's upset you say "that must be very frustrating for you, DD" then move on.

10. She is clearly immensely loved and cherished, you just have to view all this as being in a bad cycle.

11. Don't forget that if she does hit a sibling, make a big fuss of the victim, don't reward her with any negative attention (repeat the mantra, negative attention is still attention).

12. Sometimes humour will deflect a situation, like getting dressed, races to get dressed, getting dressed in the car, wearing something crazy.

13. Looking back over your OP, I see that you are saying "please don't do that" a lot. Stop it. Either it is unacceptable behaviour that needs to be sanctioned, or it is ignored. In the meantime, be vigilant for every single opportunity you can find to give her something to be praised for, can she feed the cats? Can she water the plants? Could she be a waitress and collect the plates?

14. Finally (I'll shut up soon). Use the tactic of simply stating the issue "I see DD standing on the sofa" - I guarantee she'll sit down. Not "PLEASE DON'T STAND ON THE SOFA DD". Also one word requests "SHOES" instead of please get your shoes on.

15. (I lied). If she is fighting with a sibling over a toy, think about putting the toy in time out, makes it a bit of a joke and diffuses the situation.

I wish you the very best of luck. After 10 years lurking on MN this is my longest ever post by a huge magnitude.

Qualification to post: Mother of 2 DSs and a DD who was nearly the end of me....

tiggyhop that is a brilliant post.

Agree great post tigghop

you mentioned maybe stopping breakfast and after school club if it s possible i think that may be a good idea. i know some children have to be out for long days if both parents work but if she doesn't have to be i would cut back.

tired children behave badly their behavior can be almost exactly the same as children with ADHD.

Also when picking your battles and deciding what behavior is acceptable remember she is only 5 yes she is the eldest of 3 but she is still young herself.

as long as you praise more (x 10 )than you tell off. make sure NO always means NO. only ever say nice things about her in her hearing (thus improving self esteem) otherwise why be good most of the time when you only tell dad the bad stuff. things will improve

Ignore the behavior not the child e.g when she is having a temper tantrum you ignore her behavior but still talk to her dd what shall we have for dinner i fancy ..... mindless chatter. this is using distraction to stop the tantrum.

children can be literal there is a big difference between can you tidy your room (you are asking if she CAN do it not to actually do it) and will you tidy your room (setting task) or even better straight to the point tidy your room.

WHEN and THEN also works really well with young children WHEN you have eaten your dinner THEN you can have pudding. this sets clear understandable goals for the child.

Tiggy hop- just the best advice I've seen in a nutshell. Thankyou!!! The examples are great. I've realised I over analyse and discuss both my children's behaviour far too much. I find it so difficult to ignore as I often get irritated and anxious especially at end of day when tired. But I'm going to print this off and hang it on my wall as new bible!!!!!

To the OP - Lots of great advice here. Thanks for raising the question

I am so touched by your kind comments.

OP,

There is loads of really good advise on this thread. How about printing it out and reading it through with you Dh (edited if need be )