How common is it for 4yos to physically hurt parents/others?

[IsItMeOr]

Just that really. 4.8yo DS is prone to physical aggression when he gets angry. So today I am sporting a rather large bite mark on my arm because he didn't like being put in time out, and the two bruises from the pinches he gave me about a week ago (for the same reason) are not quite healed yet.

It's not something that I hear other parents talking about, and I'm unclear whether this is because it doesn't happen, or because it does happen but nobody mentions it.

What's your experience?

Well.. I do recall dd1 biting my hand really badly at that age, because I wouldn't carry her. I was pregnant and really upset at the time. I've also been kicked/head butted etc by dd2 quite a bit, and dd3 could be vicious too. So either it's fairly normal, or mine is a terrible family!

Something that helps me is to work out a plan of what I'm going to do when situations start building up, ie send them to cool off whilst I have a cup of tea in the kitchen with the door closed, and having some stock neutral phrases like "that's completely unreasonable" and "I'm not for hitting" to defuse and take the emotional charge out of it.

Thanks Alfalfa - looks like it's just us though!

A much better day today. Fingers crossed he'll grow out of it soon.

My 3-year-old son is generally hyperactive (not a diagnosis, just how he is), everything is excessive with him, and he does hit. Not just when angry: he will run into the dog on his little car, or pull his older sister's hair for no reason. It's getting better though, with consistent and calmly delivered punishment. He hits - I take away a toy he loves. No drama, no threats, just one warning. He screams bloody murder while I do, but I ignore that and persevere and have noticed he's mentally checking himself before he hits and often (not always) stops himself now. I noticed at a preschool performance that there are kids in his preschool group behaving just like he does at home, so maybe there's been some negative impact from there as well.

Thanks Angelina :)

He's not generally hyperactive. A lot of the time he's calm, engaged and attentive. Then he'll seem to get stuck in a bad rut.

We're working with school to manage it there. Got a meeting with the teacher tomorrow, so will ask her if she thinks we need to try anything else.

Meanwhile, clear rules, time outs to enforce and sticker chart with rewards to encourage. They never show them biting the parents on Supernanny though ;)

Well, both of mine were/are aggressive at times. Ds1 is 7 and thankfully rarely gets aggressive now, and if he does it's much more tame ie a push.

Ds2 is 5 and again getting less aggressive but can still lash out at times, scratching and pinching. With ds1 it really concerned me, I even rang parentline once and they told me it wasn't normal, which really bloody helped!

I now know it's pretty common from experience/other parents.

My dd is only 18 months so no experience yet. But this did remind me of a story my mum tells from when I was 4 or 5. Apparently her mother was staying for a visit (they lived abroad) and I was having fairly regular temper tantrums where I would lash out at mum. Her mum's not very helpful input was "you shouldn't let her treat you like that". Mum still quotes that as Least Helpful Advice Ever.

Incidentally, I turned out a fairly functional human being, or at least I don't go around hitting people any more :)

I hate to disagree with everyone but it is not normal for children to be aggressive and violent. They may grow out of it but I can assure you no-one will be too keen on them if they bite and lash out, especially other children and their parents. I would have been mortified if my children were showing aggression at 7 years old. I think consistency of behaviour strategy is the key and definitely working with the school is imperative.

Thanks for starting this thread - I was about to start the same one myself tonight .

Ds is 4.8, middle child. Has always been quite highly strung, averaged about 7 face-down tantrums a day as a toddler.

Just recently, there has been appalling behaviour. Lashing out, kicking, screaming tantrums. He's really shoving the toddler, they wind each other up terribly . He's been refusing to wear his coat, shoes etc., then when forced to do something, he kicks cupboards, punches walls, has to be dragged to car/school etc.

He used to have a facial tic when he was tired or stressed, and this has come back with the bad behaviour. Also compulsive, really agitated fidgeting when he's angry.

I am becoming an angry parent . I don't know what to do. Last night seemed quite effective, I told him he wasn't getting a bedtime story and made him sit on his bed whilst I got his siblings ready for bed. Told him I had nothing to say to him (repeated lying, smirking and refusing to listen in his swimming class, putting himself in danger). He sat on his bed for 30 mins whilst I put his siblings to bed, then came to me, admitted lying and apologised. Then the whole lot started all over again at breakfast today.

Thing is, there's no trouble at school, it seems just at home or with family. I spoke with the teacher, who said he's not been identified as a child that stands out for behaviour problems. Today though, she said he had trouble concentrating and maintaining eye contact when being spoken to. I've sent the toddler to the grandparents for a few nights to try and diffuse the atmosphere at home, but ds will not be doing anything "treat"-like this weekend.

I'm thinking of speaking to the doctor to check if his behaviour was normal. I thought I'd ask Mumsnet first though.

LittleSiouxieSue, are you saying it's abnormal? My 7 year old very, very rarely gets physical, and if he does it's dealt with, therefore his aggressive behavior was I believe his immature way of dealing with anger/frustration and he has been taught it is not appropriate. He never lashed out at other parents or at school.

Lucky you if you haven't experienced this, but it's my "normal", and my dc are perfectly "normal" kids.

I do believe that age 4 is actually a classic time for periods of bad behaviour at home (although I'm sure there's the odd annoying person with perfect dc ). I because they suddenly need to cope with relatively long days at school, they're tired and have possibly been bottling up various frustrations throughout the day, then they take it out on the parents because we are 'safe'. The first term of school in particular; I have three DDs and only recognised the pattern on my last (now aged 6 and far better able to control her temper. A bit shouty mind..).

dd2 was a bit 'worse' (for want of a better word) at that age, perhaps due to having an ASD and therefore a little less able to control her temper and less able to express herself clearly in other, more constructive ways. We were still just as firm with her when it came to aggression though, and now she only lashes out very, very rarely (usually when I've dealt with a situation badly) and much more mildly.

4 year olds only get physical once. It does not happen a second time. Giving your son an incentive not to repeat the behaviour is a really good idea. It is not necessary to consult the experts on this one.
I agree with the mother of the person who said "you shouldn't let her treat you like that". It might have seemed unhelpful advice at the time. But the result from that advice did work out.

My nearly 4yo DD is just generally physical. So I get knocked over with the force of her hugs, she accidentally breaks stuff and runs straight into walls

She also lashes out when angry, and is really strong, so it hurts. Plus she has mighty tantrums where she seems to not even know where she is. Luckily those are getting less often now.

She only seems to do it to me, XH and DD1, I don't know why.

Interesting points of view - thanks for sharing everyone.

Zhx3 hope you're doing okay, that sounds pretty full on. Have you tried lovebombing from the Oliver James book? It did help a lot with DS (although obviously not a cure all ).

DS is currently similar at school, only it's other kids who he lashes out at.

Had a very helpful catch up with his lovely teacher today, and she made it clear that, while DS's behaviour is extreme in the level of aggression, the fact that he reacts to the things he does do is absolutely typical for his age, just the particular reaction which is less common. But it was clear that they had plenty of other children within the school who were similar.

And she has also said that for most children that age, just getting used to school, they have to let off steam somewhere, and it's more likely to be at home. So likely many more kids are being violent/aggressive at home.

On the "you shouldn't let her treat you like that" - I do agree with that, although it's not necessarily the most helpful thing to be told in the moment. I think it means that you need to be clear with yourself that it's not acceptable behaviour and that you don't deserve to be hurt.

While I'd agree that is probably pretty common around that age, and that many are experimenting with reactions and how to respond to others, it is absolutely not acceptable, it cannot be an excuse. As long as you are continuing to be consistent with your time outs / discipline and carrying through any threats every time and despite and lashings out, I do think it will pass... You do need to put your foot down though and let them know you will not stand for violent behaviour.

I don't know how common it is - but I clicked on this thread because DS1 (aged 3 years 9 months) is physically aggressive with me and, well, everyone and everything.

From my own experience, I would guess that it's something that people don't talk about in RL. DH and I are working closely with DS1's pre-school setting (who are brill) - but I don't talk about the issue with the school gate mummies. That's partly because I'm quite a reserved person in RL, partly because I'm embarrassed, and partly because on the occasions I have tried to talk to other parents, I've been met by blank incomprehension. Other parents can be incredibly judgmental: the assumption seems to be that if you've got a child with problematic behaviour, then you must be a rubbish parent. I've eventually concluded that people who haven't experienced difficult behaviour really struggle to understand that there are some children for whom sticker charts, time outs, incentives and downright punishments do not work.

In our case, DS1 is not our first child and his older sibling does not have the same issues (I cling to this thought on the bad days). Everyone, including DS1, agrees his behaviour is wrong. Unfortunately, reaching a consensus on that point has been easier than helping him to control his horrendous temper. It's my job to parent him to the best of my ability and that means it's my job to try to find a way of helping him to control his temper. But when sticker charts, time outs, incentives and punishments haven't worked, what happens then?

Well, I don't know what happens then - because that's the point we've now reached. I'm on the internet trawling for fresh ideas - or maybe reassurance that emotional maturity will arrive and solve all our problems.

What I do know is that advice along the lines of "you shouldn't let [him] treat you like that" is enormously unhelpful - and, whilst I can't speak for other people whose children have difficult behaviour, the attitude makes me feel increasingly isolated from other parents.

[Finally, apologies for the lengthy and rather bleak post. This thread touched a nerve and came at the end of a rather tough week! I thought about not posting it after I'd typed it - but then decided that, well, the OP had asked for people's experiences...]

Mog37, it sounds like you are doing everything you can to deal with the aggression, and I'm sure he will learn to control himself. Ds1 was terribly aggressive with other children (and me) at that age but is never aggressive with other kids now, and hasn't been for a long time. 3.9 is SO little in the grand scheme of things, what he's like now doesn't represent who he will be.

I've lost friends in the past over ds1s aggression, and been judged harshly, even though it was clear I was doing my best and not letting him get away with it. It will get better, try not to let it get to you. Unfortunately it seems until you have experienced something yourself, you can't understand it, and human beings are very judgemental.

Thanks Mog37 and sorry you're having such a tough time too. I do appreciate your honesty, and it does help when parents with more than one reassure those of us with onlies that it's not (necessarily) because we're inexperienced parents who have "done something wrong".

I've come to the conclusion that all I can do is be consistent and work with the school, and meanwhile try to have as much fun together as we can.

I don't know, but DS (5) does this too. Just to me, not anybody else. Sometimes DP.

I have found it's best to keep intervention to a non-physical level. For good behaviour he earns "stars" which he is allowed to spend on toys and sweets. He likes to buy big bags of sweets which we let him have a few at a time. If he cannot control himself then we take him to his room but instead of enforcing a physical battle with him about coming out, the rule is that if he comes out of his room, the sweets go in the bin. It's not something that is threatened for anything else (I did feel rather guilty about it because it's effectively his reward which we would be taking away). For one-off incidents where he is clearly controlling it then he loses TV time. Again this allows me to be calm and say "Because you have hit me you are banned from all screens until X time." No battle, nothing to argue with, nothing particularly horrible or scary, but if the behaviour continues then the ban increases by 30 minutes each time. I don't do time out any more, I found it was counterproductive and he just saw it as a game/something to fight against. Ditto taking away of toys or cancelling treats - he wasn't seeing it as a fair punishment, he just thought I was using my authority as a weapon against him and would escalate his defence against it. I very very rarely send him to his room and it's reserved for the times when either he is totally out of control and hitting/throwing things or I am so angry I feel like I want to hurt him.

We also try to help him when he is calm think of things that he can do to let people know that he is angry/upset about something rather than hitting out. This helps to a certain degree, and works best when combined with the non-combative approach :)

Thank you so much for being kind, loosenotlose and isitmeor. I'm really sorry you've had to deal with this too but I really do appreciate the sympathy from others who've been through it and know how draining it can be.

Isitmeor, it's not you! DS1 and DD have been brought up in the same house by the same people with the same rules. And they are very different children.

BerstieSpotts, do you mind me asking what strategy you're teaching your son for letting people know he's upset before/instead of hitting? I've tried getting DS1 to count to ten (which doesn't work) and I'm trying at the moment to get him to just walk away when he's cross. Thing is, I'm not sure he recognises that he's getting cross until he's already lost the plot.

Does he have a chance to do physical activities? He needs to release pent up energy. Our preschool explained that ds would have a testosterone surge at 4 so would need to channel the energy. We were told that wrestling play with dad was very important - teaches him boundaries and about hurting/not hitting to hurt etc.
My ds goes to hit me and his sister but not to hurt. We don't do time outs or star charts - I found them counterproductive - we tell him what he should do in certain situations and if he needs to vent, he should hit a cushion or something.

my ds (now 12) was a very angry child, it was the one thing that brought me to mn in the first place, was so hard to deal with.

i sent him to martial arts lessons and it has been the making of him, it teaches him to manage his anger and direct it with the moves (not sure what they are called!), he's doing his black belt soon, am dead proud of him but when he was 5 i despaired of him

Hi there IsItMe,

Hope you're feeling a bit better - I must admit, it made me feel a bit better to know that I'm not the only one .

Well, I took the toddler to my parents' place to stay for a few nights, and ds has been a changed child. In fact, he has gone back to being the adorable, funny, charming boy he is when he isn't stressed. We've seen a couple of signs of a tantrum brewing over the weekend, but managed to nip it in the bud before it erupts. I've told my eldest not to wind him up deliberately, whilst we try and work through this phase.

I need to stop myself from getting angry, and tbh - although it's not a long-term solution - it's probably worth separating him and the toddler for a few days a week. I also probably need to not let the toddler monopolize my time - there's a lot of jealousy going on between the two of them.

This thread has really helped me - thank you for starting it .

Ooh also - thinking of taking him to the martial arts class that our eldest attends - the energy and the discipline might do him some good. He might be a bit small for it, but he'll go and have a look tomorrow, then maybe try a class .

Teach him some tricks to calm down /distract from his aggression - for example just taking a deep breath or saying he is angry. It's worked for me, it takes time to sink in but has helped. Also, if he feels like hitting - put hands in pockets.

We also moved away from words like naughty / good / hitting (wasn't listening any more to these) and used be kind / makes people sad & upset. For rewards - marble in Jars / activities / your face lighted up when he gives you the thumbs up for being kind all day.

Takes time, but you will hopefully get there.

Martial art class was tried - made him worse and teachers also told me to stop it.

Everyone get as much sleep as possible - it much harder to keep everyone calm when sleep deprived.

At the risk of getting shot down for this I want to make an observation. A lot of MNers tend to avoid words like 'naughty' and see punishments and rewards as a negative thing.

As a mum of 2 loving boys, 1 who is more aggressive and challenging, I'd like to suggest that there's no harm in telling kids that hitting or biting others (ourselves included) IS naughty, because it is.

I attachment parented my DC and there's no shortage of love and affection in our house BUT we stamp out physical manifestations of anger and frustration because it's unhealthy and disrespectful. If you don't hit your child, you shouldn't tolerate your child hitting you. What message does it give them if you do? Furthermore, if they lash out at kids at school, it's confusing and unfair for all those children who see hitting as wrong. In terms of your own child, not getting to grips with hitting can result in other parents and children avoiding your child. So, while a child who hits is usually lovely, he/she misses out on birthday parties/play dates through no fault of his own. He doesn't understand how socially unacceptable physical aggression is...it's your job to tell him.

I'm sorry if I sound preachy and I'm not having a go at any one of you in particular. My DC are not without their own challenges so I understand that it's not always easy or clear cut. It's just a parenting trend I've noticed and I wanted to represent those other mothers at the school gate whose children are on the receiving end of physical aggression.