5yr old like two different children, normal behaviour?

[TheBreastmilksOnMe]

My son who's nearly 5 is, on the whole a lovely boy, kind, considerate, funny, observant and shows a lot of maturity for his age but other times he can be hyper, excitable, impulsive, doesn't listen and gets me so cross he is almost undisciplanable.

Today he had a swimming lesson in a group and refused to get out of the pool at the end. He was cheeky, pulling tongues, splashing water at me and the life guards and spitting. Eventually got him out, the hyper behaviour continued to the changing rooms, I threatened him several times with losing a privilege ( his art and craft session tomorrow) if he didn't sort out his behaviour, he didn't so he lost the privilege and cried all the way home.

This behaviour happens regularly he is just high sprites and has a lot of energy and I find him hard work sometimes as well as feeling like I don't have much control over him. I was wondering if this was normal, will he grow out of it and am I doing the right thing by removing privileges when he misbehaves?

Reasonably normal. Fine to impose punishments as long as they work. Also work on the angle of talking to him about why he shouldn't misbehave, and what does he need to be different to keep better control of himself.

What do I say to him and how do I put it?

Yes it can be very normal. Or it can be a sign of ADD which it turned out to be with my 6 year old. Even with that diagnosis though its perfectly manageable- just do what you do now. He misbehaves, he gets a warning - he continues, he is disciplined in whichever way you see fit.

With the spitting and uncontrollable behaviour, I put mine in his room and ensure he stays there until he calms down and apologises.

I've thought ADD, Cressida as I think I had it as a child but don't notice it so much now. He is very bright for his age (according to his nursery and others) how would I get help? When I went to my own gp with my concerns over myself I found them amazingly unhelpful and would feel like I was one of these anxious mother types putting my own problems on my child.

On the ADD, I've read a link between coeliac disease/cows milk protein intolerance and I suspect I have this but again gp very unhelpful.

Well, put very simply, he needs to be displaying these behaviours in several different settings.

My son appears 'normal' for want of a better word. And he is 'fine'. He reached all milestones, he's bright and funny. Chatty and clever. Loves ( in great depth ) a vast array of subjects such as Space or the Egyptians. He's well behaved etc etc

But then ... He also cannot read . At all really. And i believe this is because he cannot concentrate enough to apply himself, although give him some Lego and hes a whizz. He has meltdowns in which he will scream and spit and try and throw things. He has no control. He is on school action plus and has been almost since day one of starting.

So, issues at school. He loses his temper at home. And in his holiday child care he's been excluded a couple of times because they couldn't handle him. Yet once they put additional support in and kept a closer eye on him ... Perfect behaviour! This isn't a day to day thing - he isn't bouncing off any walls or anything.

Google ADD and also ADHD. See which one fits best. Have a look at autism and aspergers. My DS doesn't really 'fit' these but he is ADD to a tee.

Interesting to hear you say you feel you had this yourself? I agree , getting help is very difficult indeed

What do I say to him and how do I put it?

When he's in a good mood, and receptive: tell him in a few simple brief sentences why it's so important to you that he learns to swim. On another occasion, explain why that kind of behaviour is unacceptable. You can repeat these explanations many times over the week. Small and often.

I've made it sound easy, it's not; it's very hard to do all that without emotion, to find the right opportunity and the right simple words. So, many sympathies.

All this hinges on whether he can usually find decent self-control, some kids can't. There are different strategies for dealing with them (I like The Explosive Child book).

It can help, too, if you learn to see a pattern in what triggers his least-in-control-of-self behaviour. This is very hard to do, sometimes.

'My son appears 'normal' for want of a better word. And he is 'fine'. He reached all milestones, he's bright and funny. Chatty and clever. Loves ( in great depth ) a vast array of subjects such as Space or the Egyptians. He's well behaved etc etc'

I could have written this myself. My son has only just started school so wrt reading, I don't know, but at nursery they've had to use a reward chart to control his behaviour sometimes although they have never spoken of any concerns to me they do say he has a lot of energy. At home he displays hyperactivity, impulsivity, a temper when thwarted, doesn't listen. Yet he loves arts and crafts, so can spend ages concentrating on painting and drawing. I really don't know. He has a parent's evening in the next few weeks so I might raise my concern with his teacher and see what she says.

Yes even as a young child I felt my brain was foggy, I couldn't concentrate in class, had poor social skills, was picked on, very dreamy and forgetful, had hyper moments etc so wondering if we are cut from the same cloth?

Hyperfocus is a sign of ADHD.
Adhd kids do not usually get described as "well behaved" though. Ever.

Yes I'd read that about hyperfocus, lljkk, he does that when he's 'gardening' or doing craft work to the point where he doesn't want to stop for food or anything else and if we have to do something different then a meltdown or a major strop will ensue.

mmmm... I have one like that, too.
Don't think he'll ever get a diagnosis. Other than generally "difficult".

It is tougher to get recognition if they are at least average attainers. So frustrating.

Oh I don't know about children with ADHD never being well behaved. Like everyone else, they're all different. It's definitely possible .. We have some great times out and he behaves well. We have other times out and he doesn't. I find myself having to 'prepare' him before we go for a meal ( for example ) .. So, I'll talk about what I expect from him, I'll positively reinforce good behaviour throughout the meal and we don't tend to have a leisurely 3 hour chat over our food. : )

Honestly, if I had to describe a child with ADHD a few years ago I'd have described an out of control animal, climbing the walls and dosed up on Ritalin. Its just not like that.

Op - don't be fobbed off. I instinctively felt for a long time that something wasn't quite 'right' - but told myself he was just 'quirky' . Also don't be told its your parenting. It isn't.

This is a fantastic site for adhd/add I used it a few years ago when I thought that that's what I have. I went to my gp and basically got told no, you're not, go away. So I left it and didn't pursue it. This website, run by a man who has it himself tells you all about the nuances of add/adhd that generally people know nothing about.

I believe my mother and I have it, I also believe my son has it but I'm dreading going down the diagnosis route again.

Cressida- that is what I feel. He's definitely quirky, mostly he behaves well but sometimes he doesn't and its extreme, combined with everything else I feel something isn't quite right.

Hi, New mummy in the house! Just wanted to add my thoughts. I actually disagree with the idea that your son may be adhd. Of course I am no doctor but everything you are describing is "normal" behavior I say this because my daughter is also nearly 5 and I have experianced most of what you have written. There are days when she is angelic and days when her behavior is so shocking it renders me speechless! I am on my own recovering from a breakdown and there was a point where i just could not cope with her behavior.

Somebody suggested going on the "incredible years" parenting course. At first I was like "i dont need anyone to teach me how to look after my child" but it turned out to be the most humbling and enlightening experience and one that changed my domestic life!

I learnt that most of us are struggling with the same behavior. The course leader said loads of parents mistakenly thought their child had adhd when actually the child was just being a child! The scene you described about not wanting to stop an activity to eat something is almost identical to one referenced in the course. Since going on that course my daugters behavior has improved dramatically! She is like a different child. I truly recommend the incredible years course. Ask your local children's centre for one in your area.

Devoted- I've heard of this course before and wanted to go on it but I don't think it's come to my area yet, unfortunately. Has going on it changed your parenting and therefore changed your daughters behaviour?

I'd ignore devoted mother if I were you. Her message reads like spam to me

In fact - on a re read all I can say is BOLLOCKS spam spam spam

I think its worth exploring if there is any potential problems but a lot of what you describe is normal too.

I have a 5.2 year old DS and he can be lovely, kind, sweet, well behaved but also gets periods of almost uncontrollable silliness and not listening - shrieking random noises, talking in made up noises and words, very frustrating!

From speaking to friends it is common and seems to stem from a release of energy and craziness after being well behaved and following rules in school. My sons teachers always praise how good he is, always listens and concentrates and sits still so he gets rid of the pent up energy on me and at home!

I wait til he calms down and is sensible again then have a chat about whats acceptable and whats not - I explain that silliness and messing about is fine but if I ask him to stop he must listen to me or there will be consequences. And I try to remember he's only 5 and although may appear very mature and capable he's still learning boundaries and understanding his emotions

And - sorry to bang on - of course everything you describe with your child is normal 5 year old behaviour. Completely normal. They all have tantrums or want to keep playing and not eat.

It's just slightly different when you can instinctively feel that it isn't quite the norm

It sounds normal to me too - especially after something like swimming which is a tiring activity and one which depletes the blood sugar. My nearly 5 year old is like it as well.

I find threatening punishments doesn't really have much of an effect unless it's something very immediate - what works much better is explaining expectations in detail beforehand and explanation/warning of what will be happening next, almost like you would for a two year old.

Flick has a good point as well that you need something which is a clear boundary and applied immediately or the constant threatening will be heard as "Do what you want, I'm not going to do anything anyway". If the punishment is too severe then it can feel really mean/like you haven't given him enough of a chance if you impose it straight away, so we have found that making it something more minor helps. If we are at home then DS gets banned from TV for 30 minutes as soon as he hits/backchats/generally does something rude or destructive as a result of being too hyper. Even if he isn't currently watching TV or is engrossed in something else just telling him this seems to be a deterrent, but it's not difficult to enforce (no battles) and it's not overly harsh so I don't feel bad putting it in place, also I can increase it if he carries on. Plus normal logical boundaries ie I am not going to listen to your request unless you ask nicely, if you want to make that annoying noise please make it somewhere else, if you aren't walking safely you have to hold hands etc. (I would say also, not to worry if he says he doesn't care about the punishment or it doesn't seem to bother him, if it takes the heat out of the interaction and stops it from escalating then it is working. He doesn't have to be particularly upset about it for it to work.)

I struggle with his behaviour when we are out because the TV threat isn't immediate enough - DP sometimes uses a "3 strike" system where there is some treat at the end of the outing which is dependent on good behaviour but if he misbehaves 3 times then he loses it. Plus he piles on the praise and treats if he does behave well - I'm not keen on this because IMO it sets up an expectation for what should be normal behaviour, I don't mind a small reward or praise though. (But we have just moved country so a lot of stress on DS! DP reckons we can phase it out once DS has settled in a bit more.) I also take him out of places to calm down and return when he is calmer. The "we will go home" threat doesn't work very well when that is what they want to do, but being aware of their behaviour and watching for danger signs can enable you to take him home before he hits his trigger point too. Carrying snacks for difficult times - nursery/school pick up for example, end of a tiring activity - they help. And distraction on long journeys when he is tired, we often load up the tablet with films and let him watch them on the train home if we've been out for the day. It might seem like a cop-out, but it's a lot to expect him to sit quietly in a mostly boring environment after a long day when he's tired and hungry.

Conventional wisdom would say if the punishment isn't working then make it more severe but I have found that making it something token seems to make the point much better without it escalating into arguments and whining and general battles.

what works much better is explaining expectations in detail beforehand and explanation/warning of what will be happening next, almost like you would for a two year old.

I think you're lucky if you've had a 2yo who would understand consequences well from such explanations! 2 of my 2yos were like that, the others not so much, even when older.

Not understanding consequences is a hallmark sign of ADHD, even if you've explained it a million times. I have a 1st cousin whose DD (now 30+ herself) has ADD and it's been like banging head against brick wall for her mother, to really get the DD to anticipate consequences.

This is why I opened by saying "...IF they work." Threats are pointless when they don't work. Threats are consequences and it's hard wired for some kids to struggle with consequences. Need to find other tactics.

I agree that so much of parenting is about managing kid's own expectations. I NEVER expected that. Trying to understand the world as they see it thru their eyes and help them adapt their responses accordingly.

No I didn't mean explaining consequences. I meant "DS, after lunch we are going to get on the bus and then get off in town and walk to the swimming pool. When we get to the swimming pool we are going to pay and then get changed and then we are going to go into the swimming pool. After swimming we have to get changed again and then we will go to McDonalds for tea." (Maybe at 5 the stages like getting changed could be omitted as obvious)

But then before each stage you remind them "When we get onto the bus you pick ONE seat and stay there, sitting nicely" "When we get to this next big road I need you to hold my hand" "When we are walking by the swimming pool we have to be careful not to slip"

That's what I meant about explaining what is expected and what will happen next. And no, it doesn't always work with a 2 year old but it helped a lot with mine. Far fewer battles about what was happening if it was explained in advance rather than just foisted on him once he'd arrived and made up his own mind what would be the best or most fun way to sit/cross the road/behave generally.

wow wow wow! I havent read everything that has been written the first thing i saw was "ignore devoted mother" and bollox! really ladies??? Perhaps it was my wording? dunno what the problem is here.I was apprenhensive about joining this site having heard about the "mumsnet mafia" before but i thought i would give it a try as i didnt want to just assume! My daughters behavior was really and truly awful and I just felt useless all the time. plus dealing with my depression post traumatic stress etc it was a terrible time for us both. I know what it is like to want to rip your hair out I seriously just wanted to help!I wont bother going on anymore because I know im just leaving myself open for more nastiness. Im a lone parent and sometimes you just want to talk to others that understand. I was hoping to have a few friendly chats on here but guess im not welcome! To the origional poster I wish you luck and I hope resolve everything soon. take care