Am gobsmacked by a playdate today with psycho-child.

[Caligula]

This is half a rant and half a request for opinons. Child (7) is a known as a bit of a wind up merchant. Basically what she does is wind up her playmate to the extent that they become hysterical and then she looks surprised and injured by their behaviour and they get into trouble. I've seen her try it out on a couple of occasions, but was so amazed by it today that I needed a rant about it and know I can't do it to anyone else! I was also quite admiring of how much of a fine art she's got it down to at only seven years old.

Playdate consists of child (whom I will for convenience call Agrippina (7) following DS (also 7) round to wind him up, resulting in him being hysterical with fury. So I separated them (with difficulty, she really wanted to follow him) and she was left with no choice but to play with DD (4) who was thrilled to be the object of attention of older child. This was OK for about 40 minutes, but when DS joined us for dinner, she decided to be nice to him and not to play with DD. So DD was wailing "I want to play with Agrippina! She's my best friend" feeling all the pain of rejection while A played with DS. Then A decided DS is a stupid boy, so he starts howling and she decides to play with DD again. Her playing consists of her dragging DD across the garden hurting her and laughing. First I knew of it was when DD came in crying saying "Agrippina was hurting me and she thought it was funny but it wasn't and she's not being kind and I want her to be my friend."

I know this child is awful. She does this every single time she comes to mine, or to anyone else's house. The other thing she does is openly challenge my authority as an adult, insolence is the only word to describe her attitude. The thing is, I can't stop her coming because I'm quite friendly with her mum, whom I feel quite sorry for. She's in a very obviously unhappy marriage (DH undermines her publicly and stays out all night and she muses about whether to leave him occasionally) and she's not in the best of health. She's sort of being a bit boycotted by most of the other mothers as Agrippina is such a nightmare that she's run out of people who will have her round; so of course, lil' ole single mother me, bottom of the pile and unreasonably tolerant, is the only one who will still put up with her. The child obviously does this for attention and has learned it at home, you don't get to seven and be this nightmarish by yourself; but my problem is how to get my children to deal with it. Or whether to bother. I know it's not my problem, I could drop this woman and her wretched child, but I do feel she's sort of flailing around helplessly and could do with some support and friendship. However, mentioning that her dd is psycho-child is out - she's in total denial.

What's the mumsnet verdict? What should I do?

Was the mother visiting with the dear child or was she on her own, C?

If she's with you on her own, would it be possible for you to police her and make her have time out etc? If not, can you have quiet words with your 2 before she comes (if she comes again, you saintly woman!) telling them that when A behaves badly they are to instantly turn their backs on her and come to you - not react, not complain, just leave her standing there? Would that work if they could remember to do it?

Cal,I have the exact same scenario and have discussed it on MN on several occasions.

Whilst I applaud your philanthropic streak,may I suggest you have enough on your own plate to deal with,never mind anyone elses???

I now only see my (dear) friend when children aren't around (thus very rarely)
Great shame as the child in question has a lovely little brother the same age as my ds.
I have decided I will not subject my child to these sorts of weird games thoughg.

Sounds bad.
The problem is this girl will (most probably) get worse if the issue is not confronted and dealt with.
My response would depend on how well I felt I got on with the mother.
I have friends with whom I couldn't contemplate having a "conversation" about their child's behaviour and others I will openly comment on their "excitable" child and not worry about the consequences.
Therefore I would either leave it and avoid or confront and try to help the friend out.
What do you feel would be her response? You probably have a gut feeling?

Stick a video on for them all! Or could you not take them out to a wacky warehouse type thing so that your children are not her sole victims. Or you could arrange to meet your friend when she doesn't have her child, or when you don't have yours.

I think mtg her in your own space or hers is a bit claustrophobic for the kids, there is no distraction for them, whereas if you meet in public there are other kids to tease and it's easier to distract your own kids too.

I do feel for you however. How would the mother feel if you disciplined her child? Say if you said straight away that you have rules in your house and punishments and they apply to child guests as well as your own children, would the mother be happy to go along with this? Might also help your kids to see her getting punished for her misbehaviour otherwise it would seem awfully unfair to them.

This is one of those tricky ones, isn't it?

How would you feel about telling the child that in this house these are the rules and this is what happens if you don't comply? If it got very bad that is. If she tittle tattled to her mum that you told her off, how would it go down?

Otherwise how about directing and guiding the play yourself (build a den, creative activities overseen by you, trip to the park) rather than allowing the kids to choose their own entertainment, therby cutting down the opportunity for the devil child to get too bad.

Or teach your kids that it's ok to say to her that she is playing too rough and they don't like it. Might not actually stop her misbehaving but might make your kids feel a bit better.

Or you could move. Oh ok maybe not.

I have a very similar situation with my friend's dd. My friend and I have known each other since our girls were newborns but over the last year I've barely seen her as her dd's behaviour is so upsetting to my dd. They're both only 4 so the psychological stuff isn't terribly sophisticated but it involves exactly what you've said: friend's dd goads, teases, physically hurts dd then acts totally innocent and even lies and says ot my friend that my dd's been the perpetrator even when I've witnessed what happened. So it turns into a battle of whether or not her mum believes me or her. And she loves the drama of that. And I hate myself for getting wound up by someone who's only 3 bloody feet tall.

Anyhow, the result is that I now only meet up with them outdoors somewhere (even that becomes problematic within the first hour) and very rarely. My friend and I keep in touch by phone and email. I'm hoping her dd will change at some point because I do miss seeing my mate.

LOL at moving - honestly, the times I've fantasised wildly about selling up in secret and leaving no forwarding address!

Moondog I know you're right, part of me thinks "wtf, dd and ds really don't need to deal with this kind of shit..." but of course, they do, because A goes to DS's school and is in his class (had to go and see his form teacher about her last term) and her brother will be in DD's class. And also, I think, they will come across psychologically damaged people in life, is it too early to prepare them?! I did explain to them after she went home, that A is slightly mad and they have to remember that when dealing with her, but am not sure if that is the PC approach! DS really liked that idea though.

I like the idea of house rules and turning the back. Not sure if my children would remember to do that though, but can try.

Speaking as somebody who has no experience as a parent of this sort of behaviour, but plenty as a child (), I would sit her down and put the fear of all things holy into her.

Not sure that's not Frowned Upon though.

I have a lot to learn, I suspect.

Am I helping, Caligula? Am loving her name though, what a coincidence, with you being Caligula and everything

Do tell Hunkermunker, was it you who behaved liked this as a child, or someone known to you?

It is just so astounding to witness dysfunction in action like this. In many ways I find her a fascinating study of mentalism, but of course I can't inflict her on my children without giving them some kind of strategy to deal with her, just because I find her gruesomely interesting.

Also, I'm not sure i've got anything to threaten her with.

could you tell your children that whenever A does something to wind them up they must ignore her and walk away. it is obvious she is doing it on purpose just toget a reaction from them. if she gets no reaction there will be no point in doing it.

i would put her in time out and also suggest to the mother that she do this whenever A plays up. time out only works when carried out by all people who look after the child involved.

Oh yes Ooops,know about all those nasty little tricks.

This kid has thieved stuff from my house too-not because she want the stuff,just to be bad.

I think there's something in what hunker says. presumably this girl sees no consequences in behavng badly at your house - can you introduce some? can you sit her down and say when you are at my house a, b and c are not allowed. there is ice cream for pudding and if I catch you doing a.b or c you will not be having any. (that's the kindly virtually carrot version; the other option is if I catch you doing a,b,c you'll sitting on the step until you are ready to say sorry. the really mean one is she'll get locked in the cellar. ) If you thought this was worth trying, it might be worth telling the mum - before-hand, and telling her what happens on the day, otherwise you run the risk that A will come up with some rubbish about why she didn;t get ice-cream

lol at example of mentalism

my dh reckons the dd will be a goth when she grow up

on being told that another friend of ours had a baby, the girl asked "did it die?" without changing step in any way.
She was 2yrs 9months

Caligula - I think this situation is unfortunately, quite common. I posted about two problem children this morning. Someday I will learn to do links , but until then, here's the thread. Maybe there's some advice that can help you, and I'll continue to watch this thread with interest.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=8&threadid=183590&stamp=060617110509#3789277

God,you're all far nicer people than me!
I will not put up with shit and bullying in my home.
It is meant to b e my family's haven!

It's your kids home - why invite someone that causes problems. It's not fair on them. Agree to see the mum for coffee but only when her kid is at school. Tell her the problem - that your kids don't enjoy playing with her kid but that you're happy to be friends with her. Qualify it by saying that kids all have their own friends but this doesn't stop being friends with her. Plus it takes a lot out of you having to run after her dd when she's round to play & that you don't have the time or energy.

Yeah, we've got friends with a tiresome child - pushes others off play equipment, throws food in restaurants, runs screaming round the house until the small hours, if he IS quiet it's because he's filling the gasfire of a rented holiday cottage with choccy raisins, watched benignly by his dad...

We just avoid going on holiday (NEVER again!)/out to dinner with this family. If they come to our house & child is hurting or upsetting ds or dd he gets barked at, in front of his parents - lovely people but with, ahem, a very different approach to parenting from mine & dh's. They did get grumpy once in an 'oh he's only playing!' fashion. I just shrugged & said 'my gaff, my rules'. It took me awhile to toughen up, but eventually I just got so p*ssed off with it that I decided that if the worst that could happen was them leaving in a huff & never speaking to us again, I could frankly live with that.

Basically, it doesn't sound like you'd be devastated if this woman & her dd dropped you, so you don't have much to lose by getting tough. Probably do little Agrippina a power of good!

Thanks for the thread link Earlybird, good advice from Suzywong, might memorise that.

Not me, Caligula, "friends" of mine

Didn't like women till I found MN and discovered that they weren't all vile.

I vividly remember a couple of girls at school (when we were teenagers) who were like this. They would make best friends with someone for about 3 months, then drop them totally without any explanation or argument, leaving the other girl absolutely bewildered, hurt and angry. One of them tried to "court" me for about a year, they were extremely persistent and very difficult to withstand. Later on I met men like that and was reminded of these girls. (It turned out later that one of them had been sexually abused by her father and the other one, whose parents had divorced when she was eight, had a father who was a total alcoholic and had been absolutely unreliable throughout her childhood - and adulthood for that matter. Not sure if that's connected, but suspect it may well be.)

I had a lot of experience as a child with a neighbour who was the same age as my sister and whom we played with a lot.

She'd do all the game playing and silly stuff and really put my sister and I at loggerheadss to each other all the time - constantly swapping one of us as best friend to the other and neither of us knowing where we stood.

Luckily we moved house when I was about 7 and although we still went to the same school out new neighbours became our friends and we all moved on a bit.

It turned out that this child grew up to be a troubled adolescent - in and out of the mental health unit at the local hospital, and then since the age of about 20 has been committed to a health unit continously.

With hindsight, she was a very unstable child - perhaps this was always her destiny! Perhaps there were other paths she could have taken with appropriate intervention at a younger age. In the end though, I think it is clear that her fantasy world that she so painstakingly built over all those childhood years, has really become her life - all of it!

I'd do what you can to see if you can help to break this behaviour - sometimes the short term pain might be worth the long term gain:)

Saw this thread last night but was too knackered to comment. However olivia makes the point succinctly - "Basically, it doesn't sound like you'd be devastated if this woman & her dd dropped you, so you don't have much to lose by getting tough."

Say to the mother, "I'm happy to have Agrippina round to play, but I'm working on the behaviour of the children just now and we have a sticker chart/treat/locking in the cellar ceremony that we are using just now for bad behaviour, so Agrippina will need to be part of this too. Just so you know if Agrippina ends up losing her ice cream/spending the playdate behind a locked door" etc.

Then when Agrippina arrives (and after mum has departed), take her on one side and tell her that you are on to her and that winding up your kids will not be tolerated in any form. She gets three strikes then she is out (out being the loss of pudding, time out on a naughty step, or having to sit in your company and do nothing whilst your two play). Then watch them like a hawk - don't leave them to play in bedrooms or in the garden unattended - get your ds to bring toys into the living room (even if it is a one-off) or stay out in the garden with them (even if you are reading a mag on the patio) - stay within hearing and watching distance at all times, and make it clear to Agrippina that you can see and hear what is going on. It will be a PITA but less so than dealing with the aftermath of a bust up.

Then at the end of the session, praise Agrippina for any good behaviour she elicited, even if you have to mention the bad: "it was a shame that despite all my warnings you still lost your pudding, but you and ds played a lovely game of football/did that jigsaw nicely together and it was nice to see you play so well".

And if that doesn't work - drop her. You will have tried your best and you have your own kids sanity to think of. There is a limit to what both you and your kids can be expected to put up with! Good luck.

i knwo you are totally decent caligula...cos i always rate your posts...and figure this must be a real nightmare for you.

youve said you dont really want to cut this relationship off,so im tempted to suggest...(with the luxury of having no schoolaged children [talking out of arse emoticon])..a 'nicey nicey' approach....by which i mean have firm boundaries but also some loving behaviour...this child could be very jealous of your ds...and really want a mum like you...home like your kids have?

its what you said about her father undermining her mother publicly that makes me think her bullying behaviour is ...somehow linked...an innappropriat emotional release for anger /frustration sadness?....

oh i sound liek such a hippy...and im likely to read opposing responses to this later and completely agree...but its just waht i think is teh 'ideal 'way to go.

incase it isnt obvious enough this is an emotional reaction itself....