Am gobsmacked by a playdate today with psycho-child.

[Caligula]

This is half a rant and half a request for opinons. Child (7) is a known as a bit of a wind up merchant. Basically what she does is wind up her playmate to the extent that they become hysterical and then she looks surprised and injured by their behaviour and they get into trouble. I've seen her try it out on a couple of occasions, but was so amazed by it today that I needed a rant about it and know I can't do it to anyone else! I was also quite admiring of how much of a fine art she's got it down to at only seven years old.

Playdate consists of child (whom I will for convenience call Agrippina (7) following DS (also 7) round to wind him up, resulting in him being hysterical with fury. So I separated them (with difficulty, she really wanted to follow him) and she was left with no choice but to play with DD (4) who was thrilled to be the object of attention of older child. This was OK for about 40 minutes, but when DS joined us for dinner, she decided to be nice to him and not to play with DD. So DD was wailing "I want to play with Agrippina! She's my best friend" feeling all the pain of rejection while A played with DS. Then A decided DS is a stupid boy, so he starts howling and she decides to play with DD again. Her playing consists of her dragging DD across the garden hurting her and laughing. First I knew of it was when DD came in crying saying "Agrippina was hurting me and she thought it was funny but it wasn't and she's not being kind and I want her to be my friend."

I know this child is awful. She does this every single time she comes to mine, or to anyone else's house. The other thing she does is openly challenge my authority as an adult, insolence is the only word to describe her attitude. The thing is, I can't stop her coming because I'm quite friendly with her mum, whom I feel quite sorry for. She's in a very obviously unhappy marriage (DH undermines her publicly and stays out all night and she muses about whether to leave him occasionally) and she's not in the best of health. She's sort of being a bit boycotted by most of the other mothers as Agrippina is such a nightmare that she's run out of people who will have her round; so of course, lil' ole single mother me, bottom of the pile and unreasonably tolerant, is the only one who will still put up with her. The child obviously does this for attention and has learned it at home, you don't get to seven and be this nightmarish by yourself; but my problem is how to get my children to deal with it. Or whether to bother. I know it's not my problem, I could drop this woman and her wretched child, but I do feel she's sort of flailing around helplessly and could do with some support and friendship. However, mentioning that her dd is psycho-child is out - she's in total denial.

What's the mumsnet verdict? What should I do?

oh god! am re reading your opener caligula...and already reget posting stuff i know you would have considered....ignore me

One thing that occurred to me - at 7 my dd wouldn't have been particularly interested in playing with boys - don't know how your ds feels about girls in general - could you use this as an excuse for not having the dreaded child around? I don't think you need to lose the mother as a friend - my dd was good friends with a girl in her class for a couple of years, they are not really close now, didn't invite each other to their last birthdays, but I still socialise with her mum.

Hmm, like the very structured approach, Miaou. I know I should have been doing this all along with her, but of course it's such a nuisance when you have to get their dinner ready etc., to keep an eye on them all the time. But I think you're right, there's no other way around it. And the "I'm working on the children's behaviour so this is how it will be" makes it sound like my problem rather than hers, so i think it will go down OK!

Oh and I've just remembered why I've not done that approach much - because I have done the "oh they're not so interested in playing with each other now they're older are they - he only wants to play with boys now" for playdates, but normally they come round as a family (her and the 2 children, not undermining dad) and of course it's much much harder to be assertive and firm when there is a clueless, in-denial mother in the picture who says "Agrippina really likes Caliguletto, but he just doesn't like her". You can't really approach it with reason or common-sense when confronted by that awesome level of insightlessness!

oh poor you caligula. I like Miaou's post aswell and you may find, with some clear boundaries, that she actually plays ok.

I posted about a disastrous playdate on mumsnet and I was so worried the mum would read it that namechanged but it involved the little girl jumping on my back when I was trying to clean the floor, farting in my face, smacking me hard and running off with her dinner upstairs (as she knew food wasn't allowed upstairs) . It took me almost a year to have the same girl over again and she was a delight the next time. Turns out her mum and dad were having a particularly hard time the first time round and she was obviously pushing me for a reaction!

Good luck - your poor dd!

Caligula you've had lots of posts but found this interesting. I agree about house rules and she has to stick to them and I agree that your children will meet weirdos as adults so why not use it as a learning curve. Also as a teacher there is always the odd child that the others have to learn to deal with so not sure you should abandon it without giving it a go.
I help run a toddler group and we have a very aggressive toddler who is ignored by his parent so I have taken it upon myself to follow him around. First to observe, then to join in and show him how to play, share etc and now I praise the pants off him but also use a very stern voice for "NO we don't do that here." When I use this phrase his mother looks up when I praise him she does not. Your A's mum may thinks shes an angel because everything else in her life is s--t so she might want to believe one thing is good and great but I think I'd approach it like this (as long as you don't mind white lies!)
I'd tell her you are reaffirming house rules for your own children so when A arrives for play date you will also be including her in this process. If mum disagrees then cut your loses. If she thinks Ok what a great mum you are you have the green light to deal with her childs behaviour.

Good luck!

Shit , Caligula, you are a much nicer mummy than I am

non acceptable behaviour in our house gets my best, scary teacher look and a hard, 'We don't allow that sort of behaviour in our house little Agrippina, I'm sure your mummy dosn't let you do that in your own house' (regardless of the facts in this case IYSWIM)

Thankfully most of my mates run a no shit school of parenting and their kids are all very nice.

Thanks for all these tips, I now feel I have a little store of techniques to use.

Like the fact that you're agreeing with me that kids will come across loonies in their lives at some point bouncyball, and might as well start learning to deal with it now! (Feel a bit heartless about it but people like this are much worse when they're teenagers so if they've learnt to deal with it by then.... that's my justification anyway.)

Hi, have also had a similar situation with girls the same age. I don't know the mother too well, but enough to know she is quite frankly wet (but nice). I am quite stern with her DD when she's playin g up and she recently went to play at another friends house where the other girls mother told her she was very rude - my DD reported this back with glee.

I was just at the point of despair, when all of a sudden she changed after half term. Perhaps she was tired, needed some attention from parents or just a break from her school friends, or knows she can't get away with it here, but now although she is a bit loud and bossy, she's really quite nice. Don't give up.