Agressive Toddler

[kizzie]

Help! I'm feeling mortified. Went to a party today and one of my little boys (2 and a half) hit a little girl (only about 14 months old) on the head with a video. It was really quite hard and she did cry but was ok after a couple of minutes. I apologised to her mum and made my son apologise but I feel so awful about it.
Not sure what else I should do - call the mum who held the party to check the little girl is ok/ buy her a present?
Anyone any views?

Thanks for your kind words CAM.
You have absolutely hit the nail on the head when you say these kind of parents ( probably unwittingly ) terrorise US, the grown ups as well by dictating how we should behave.We are all so hung up on not offending anyone these days, (with a few exceptions, a couple of whom post regularly on mumsnet heheheheh)
I would never criticise another persons parenting style to them ( well I suppose there could be extreme exceptions. I don't think I could hold my tongue if a friend was knocking lumps out her kiddie). I would bitch about them to my dh, naturally, but not say anything confrontational to them if I thought they were encouraging bratty behaviour because it is just too personal and who says my methods are right?
But this current situation falls outwith these general rules because Charlie is getting hurt. Think about it, would you stand back and say nothing if Devil boy was pinching, poking and squeezing the nursery pet hamster? Probably not.
Actually it is a shame all this means the wee boy is perceived as a nasty little brat - the mum must take at least some of the blame for having created him this way, don't you think? Makes you realise how accurate the word "spoiled" is.
Good question Charliesmummy about how do undisciplined children turn out. Don't know the answer to that one.Tigermoth may be the exception! Tigermoth, I am interested to know if you have the same liberal attitiude to your kids?

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Jasper, I'll see if I can answer your question. Warning! this is going to be a bit rambling.

Am I as liberal with my children as my mother was with me. Definitely not! Partly it's because of changing times. My mum fed me a constant stream of cakes and puddings - 35 years ago, she had no idea about the harm sugar can do. I might take my sons to Mcdonalds, but they don't get a sugar -sprinkled victoria sponge for tea each day. Also, the generous number of toys I got cost proportionally less than the computer equipment today's children demand. She didn't seem to mind if I ran and danced down the street. I can't remember ever being told to walk close to her. Perhaps there was less sense of road and stranger danger then?

She was quite hot on manners, now I come to think of it, so there must have been some discipline regarding me saying please and thank you. I do remember people complimenting her on how polite I was. And to my knowledge, no parents complained about me to my mother or forbid their children to see me.

However, I think she struck lucky with me! I was naturally a very compliant child, I think. I didn't fight or name-call. I was quiet and dreamy, and had a quite pathetic respect for all adults in authority. I usually went the whole school year without ever getting a black mark, while others got some every week. If a teacher told me to do my homework, I jolly well did it, even if my mother shook her head at me. I did play my mother up, I suppose, but since she rarely raised her voice to me, and never sent me to my room, I never saw myself as naughty. I think my mum was very good at jollying me out of anything OTT, and getting me back to a more acceptable level of behavour. And this level of behaviour was pretty easy to attain.

My sons both have vastly different personalities to me. This, more than anything else governs how I treat them. They are less compliant and far more outgoing. My oldest just doesn't have my degree of unquestioning respect for adults in authority. A product of his time as well as his personality, I think. His school reports and mine are like chalk and cheese. Even now I wonder how I could have given birth to someone so different!

I feel my oldest needs far more control and guidance than I remember having at his age. However, if I had had given birth to a child who was as quiet and compliant as I believe I was, I may have reverted to my mother's level of tolerance.

I have to say it's been really difficult to look back with my child'e eye view of how I was disciplined, and compare it with my mother's eye view of how I discipline my sons. I could be very far off the mark. Perhaps I really was an awful little brat. Will ask a few old friends and come back to to you on this....

Good points, Tigermoth! Your kids sound so much like mine, I also wonder how they can be so different to how I was as a child (I was quiet and shy, believe it or not!) I blame dh for having dodgy genes.

Good answer Tigermoth, and I was thinking about this issue and had come up with a similar viewpoint, ie a lot must depend on the personality of the child. Some kids seem naturally compliant ( my sister for one) so probably need very little guidance/discipline, or whatever. Others will be horrid brats if not disciplined, and still others will be horrid brats anyway!
RobinW my experience of bratty kids is much like your brother - the ones I remember have turned out okay.
A general question to Charliesmummy - do you think devil boy's mummy is scared of him?

Tigermoth, what a lovely balanced reply. I respect that.

Your comments totally sum up my own childhood, my relationship with my 2 year 8 month year old daughter, my own mother and how she brought me up along with 4 siblings (I was no 2 and she had a miscarriage just before me - never thought a miscarriage counted within our numbers until I had one of my own!!!), and also my Mother-in-law and her own methods/means have a bearing on my dd indirectly through her father. Isn't it all so complicated?

This is a facinating thread. Jasper - I do think that DevilBoys mother is very afraid, but she is such a strong character, that it would never be admitted. The mother is certainly less stressed now that the Nanny has started, but the Nanny has been told that 'we run a free spirit house' so you makes your bed etc. Also,IMO the child runs the house with his tantrums, and his behaviour effects the household and who visits.

Looking back on my childhood, I was an only child, very loved, wanted and lucky, spoilt rotten, but both M & D were hot on manners, and very aware of not giving in to my every want and no I did not get everything I asked for. Both were strict and I don't think that it did me any harm. My mother always said that I was a pleasure to be with as a child and they could take me to any event and knew I would behave. That said I went a bit ..... wobbly at 13years old when I found make up, boys and My Guy mags and used my shader and toner - free with Jackie. So they had 13 good years before I went VILE.

With regards to my own child - he is only 14 months, both dh and I say no and he knows that we both mean it. I had the greatest compliment the other day from a close friend who said that C was a lovely happy little boy, and we had obviously put the work in. From 7 in the morning until 7 at night bar naps, we are playing and laughing and kissing and reading etc etc, exhausting! I have just read that and I am not showing off I promise, but merely making the point in relation to Devilboys mother shouting 'P* off and leave me alone for 5 minutes please', only the other day at Devilboy, I rest my case.

Having said that, I STILL like her just none of her parenting methods, and as I am trying desperately to separate the two (yes I know, NOT that sucessfully - buts that's where Mumsnet come is v handy for my moaning). So we are friends but no mention of children or at least nothing in depth.

I must say I think some of the opinions here are a tad harsh, especially given that the Devilboy in question is 2 and a half- a notoriously difficult age!
I'm certainly not suggesting you should allow Charlie to be bashed, Charliesmummy, but I think Tigermoth's point about the developmental differences between 30 and 14 months is very apt. (Your mum sounds fab btw Tigermoth, a real character!) My twin boys are approaching 3 and love to hug each other roughly, push each other over, lie on each other and roll on the floor giggling and laughing fit to bust. Obviously this occasionally gets out of hand and I intervene and introduce a more calming activity but because they're the same age and size (ish) there's usually no problem- in fact their Dad and I often join in. Maybe Devilboy is doing the same sort of thing but overlooking the fact that Charlie is half his age and (presumably) size?
Or maybe he really is doing it out of devilment but this is due (at least partly)to his age rather than his Mum's parenting style? I also had people complimenting me on my boys' sweetness and loveliness at 14 months but oh how that picture has changed!!! Enough to drive anyone to swearing... I read somewhere or other that people usually have stages where their personality and style is exactly right for their kids' age- so that a mum who struggles with eg a toddler because she finds the constant demands irritating and difficult might be an excellent mum to a teenager who needs a bit more space... or someone who finds babies a bit boring might be great with toddlers because they like the challenge and find defiance funny... Quite a comforting thought, I sometimes think!
Anyway, my solution would be to swoop down, scoop wee Charlie into your arms and say "Uh-uh Devilboy, he's smaller than you!". Seems a shame to lose a friend over it. In a year or so Devilboy might be quite personable whilst Charlie is in full toddler devil mode and then you'd have at least one place you can take him without embarrassment!

Scummymummy - point taken. I am fully expecting mine to turn in to devil child (signs are already starting - oh my gawd) and LOL at where I can take him without fear over coffee. Yes I suppose I am being harsh in as much that as any mother I was angry at my behaviour or lack of it, and indeed hers!, so no winners. Interesting point re different styles suit different ages, I have admitted on another thread that I do find it all a bit boring at the moment, and look forward to other friends children visiting and playing games and doing treasure hunts in the garden!, and how annoying is C then so .........

And I forgot to add I am feeling harsh to all today. I worked late last night - Midnight, back in work for 8.30 today. Got up to find no milk at home, despite express orders, the washing had been put on and not sorted for colours by not so dh so I have a pink and smudged black T shirt. And C is having MMR at 3.30, and I am v worried so I have had to beg a favour to get off early and they have roadworks starting on my bit of road that I use!.

Charliesmummy, just to say I think you are right to try to see your friend minus the children for now. The age gap is such a huge one at the moment, as I mentioned earlier, and scummymummy expanded on. As she says, later you might be very grateful to have a friend who's already experienced toddler hell.

Just a point that I forgot to add to my post about my mother. When my son was going through his own devil phase - he was hell on legs at around three years old - I asked my mother how she disciplined me at that age. I was desperately hoping to tap into her wisdom. She said she didn't really have to do that much - I wasn't that difficult!! She was as nonplussed as I when my son threw a tantrum. She suggested lots of distraction and attention - a gentle approach, not shouting and punishment. So I suppose I was a product of pure and undiluted positive parenting. Wish this approach worked 100%with my sons, and my voice always remained sweet and low. Oh well...

PS Charliesmummy - hope you have a great weekend to make up for today.

To change the subject slightly - does anyone have kids who hit them? My boy is 2 years 7 months and is generally if anything quite submissive. He never hits other kids and rather than taking things from them seems to like to give things. This of course is very nice. However he tends to 'bully' me. Sometimes if I sit down he runs over and hits me. I am assuming it is attention seeking but at 34 weeks pregnant it is getting rather wearing. My main concern is what he will be like when the baby arrives and I am trying to feed him/her - am I going to get any peace with a small child running full tilt into me, pulling, hitting etc? Any strategies to deal with this? I have resorted to hitting him back at times but I don't know if this is just fighting fire with fire. Surely I should be showing him that NOT hitting is the idea.

I wonder if he is jealous about the new baby already? As he is very young he may be worried but not know how to express himself any other way?
Perhaps he is looking for reassurance?

I'm sure you're right about the attention seeking, Eulaila. I wish I could offer a great solution, but I can't. However, you can try and contain your son's rumbustuous physical behavour by tiring him out as much as possible. One small tip: as it gets warmer, taking you new baby and your son to playgrounds etc, could help give your son enough running around interest and space so he leaves you alone to breast feed in peace.

I had the same worries as you with baby number two. Even though my son was 5 years, he was very attention seeking in all sorts of ways.Somehow we muddled through.

I definitely think that the sheer presence of a young and helpless baby altered my son's behaviour quite naturally, and he did keep away to some extent when I needed to feed my newborn. Hope the same happens in your case.

Tigermoth - thanks for the kind words, still in work but its all better!, and so far no nasty surprises with The MMR and he did not cry - bless.

I wish I could offer some helpful words with Eulalia - but I am interested in what the reponses are as I will be there one day!

Eulalia I am having a similar problem with my son who is nearly three. He has not actually hit me but in the last few weeks he acts rough in a way he knows is unacceptable, including some "accidental" kicks. He will insist on trying to climb right on top of my bump which is painful and he knows will end with me lifting him off. I try to show him no less affection than usual even if he can't sit on my knee for any length of time at the moment. I do believe as CAM suggests he may be jealous of the new baby already.
I had not considered this until I read it last week in a book ( not sure which one, may have been toddler taming) which said lots of toddlers get a bit aggressive to their mums in late stage pregnancy. I hope it will pass when the baby is born and will let you know very soon I hope!

Eulalia, just like to add something else: whenever one of my son'rs neighbouring friends has a new baby brother or sister, I have noticed how good the older ones are with the baby and how all the chidren are naturally protective and interested in the newborn, even the youngest and most boisterous ones. My son and a friend of his, both with newborn siblings, used to proudly refer to the new addition to their familiy as 'my baby', get very clucky as they compared them. From what I've seen, I really think that children can form some bond with babies without much adult intervention.

Does you son have any toddler friends who have a new baby brother or sister? If they are getting along OK, perhaps you could arrange a visit, so your son can see how exciting it is to have a new baby, and future playmate, in the home.

PS having read my previous message re the tip about taking both baby and son to the playground, I hope I didn't sound patronising. If so, please blame lack of time to preview message properly.

Eulalia... I agree with Tigermoth's first paragraph. It is definitely my experience that DS was very nice and protective of the baby. He was a bit rough but not out of love - just not knowing his strength.
DS was also difficult with me when I was pregnant. DH did speak to him whenever possible and told him to say sorry, which he did.
I never hit him back because as you say that's just emphasising it but if alone I would hold him by the arm and say that he had hurt me and to calm down and say sorry. I think it worked most of the time.
Currently DS is quite loud (screams all the time) and DH and I are threatening to put him in the garden... he have said this for the past 3 days but haven't done it... 1hour ago, he started screaming again (not crying at all just shouting for the sake of it/attention seeking) - DH made the threat but I told him to actually put him in the garden as no threat is really useful if they know you aren't going to do anything about it... so DS ended up in the garden (I need to point out that we are not in Scotland and therefore there is no snow!) - he was VERY surprised and started crying within 30 seconds DH was at the door saying, will you stop screaming.... he said yes... and he still hasn't. I don't think we have solved it for ever but hopefully temporarely. I need to add that I don't mind the screaming but DD is trying to sleep and with that level of noise, she can't.

Thanks for the comments everyone. No Tigermoth - I actually found your comment useful and there is a playpark just across the road. My boy is very very active and I am sure some of the boisterous behaviour is just burning off energy. There is a bit of familiarity breeds contempt I am sure too as we are with each other all the time. I don't always have the energy to discipline him properly and I am sure he gets away with things when he shouldn't. I guess I am lucky he isn't more naughty.

He has seen a lot of newborns recently and is actually fine with them, even when I hold them. In general he is not a very jealous child. However I do think it will be different with my own and he probably does understand about the baby already being the age he is. He knows there is a baby inside the bump so I guess he could be getting worried. He is often jealous of my husband - and takes his hand away if he puts in on my arm. I think the nurturing aspect is important and probably why it is often girls who react better to siblings because of the dolls they play with. He does feed his teddy and my mum has bought him a crib for teddy so when I get the carrycot down from the loft we can play games.

Jasper - you can let me know how your boy gets on with the new baby as it is not long now - and any tips will be gratefully accepted.

PS - he is even getting jealous of the computer as he often pulls my hand away from the mouse!!

Pupuce - we must have posted at the same time. Just an irrelevancy really but I am in Scotland and we don't have a flake of snow! It is very localised. Some of the English news reports forget that Scotland is geographically not much smaller than England and the weather is quite different from one part to another - same as it is in England but of course they say 'Scotland' as a whole rather than the 'Midlands' or the 'South East' like they do in England. OK that's my rant over !!!

Hope your latest disciplining idea works!

A friend of mine (not the news) in Scotland told me this morming she had some snow... I didn't assume all of Scotland was under snow... but I also didn't want you to think I will put in DS in the snow as a "punsihment".... it was said tongue and cheek !

While we are at it... I am not trying to start a row here but Eulalia... are you saying I am a disciplinarian ??? What makes you feel that way ?
Is it becasue I made my son apologise for deliberately hurting me or telling him that if he screams he needs to do that in the garden (if it was the summer I am sure now one would mine!) ? He only stayed 30 seconds right next to the door, he had 2 jumpers on and he came back in hugging DH ! Played with his cars and me ! He just had lunch with us and is currently playing with his teddies in his room for some nap time... what a poor unhappy child ! Call the NSPCC

My mother would be proud she thinks I am WAY too leanient (sp?).

Sorry to hijack!!
Robin w Iam sorry if i have offended you but I can't help but feel as if your comments below were directed at me?? i could be wrong and Iam v sensitive at the moment being preggo. I have posted more fully about this on ater tread in wich you brought it up.The quality of life thread!

Pupuce, I think Euaila was honestly just wishing you luck!! Lets face it we could all do with a bit of luck when it comes to our toddlers!!

Pupuce, this is an example of what has been discussed on another thread about communication and misunderstanding. I honestly think you have misinterpreted Eulalia's last line - I don't believe it was a derogatory comment on your parenting, but simply a good wish for the success of your new tactic. It is easy to get defensive when we feel our parenting is being attacked, but I think in this case your anger is misplaced (apologies to Pupuce if I in turn have got the wrong end of the stick and your response was tongue-in-cheek).

And did you know "discipline" means "to teach"? And since time-out and disapproval ARE forms of discipline...Anyway, why would being a "disciplinarian" be considered a bad thing? I thought disclipine was supposed to be a positive thing, teaching self-control and giving boundaries etc...it's not all about punishment...is that what "disciplinarian" implies? Okay I'll sit down now...