Spoilt Children

[YesAnastasia]

It was DS1 4th birthday and he got lots of presents including a wooden playhouse for the garden and various other toys he was very pleased with.

Today the windows on the playhouse are scratched and smashed and other toys are lost and/or broken by either DS1 or DS2 (2.7).

I've flipped today and went on about children with no mummies or daddies, no nice clothes, treats for dinner etc. It means nothing to them, I'm handling it all wrong and will have spoilt brat children who have no respect for their belongings (or other peoples). I can't believe I have raised them to be this way. How has this happened?

Anyone know an effective way of teaching children to be grateful and respectful?

Have to agree Pink, sadly from personal experience. My siblings and I were punished harshly for what I can now see were very minor misdemeanours. I can still remember the fear. No coincidence I'm sure that we are all somewhat anxious people with a tendency to worry obsessively about "getting told off" or "getting punished" for things we've done wrong. Please everyone don't make the mistakes my parents made.

"Sorry ReallyTired but you sound a horrible parent. "

I would rather be a horrible parent than have horrible kids. Some children are more wilful than others. When you have more than one child, you realise that a child's behaviour is as much nature as nuture.

If you look at programmes like supernanny, Little angels or House of Tiny terrors the parents are advised to have clear rules and sanction when necessary. Children invariably cry if they are made to go to bed at sensible or put on the naughty step. Parents need the guts to put their child on the naughty step and carry through a sanction.

" Please everyone don't make the mistakes my parents made."

All parents make mistakes. Doing sweet FA when two children diliberately trash their toys is a mistake as well. Passive parenting is worse than authoritarian parenting in many ways.

psychology.about.com/od/developmentalpsychology/a/parenting-style.htm

"Permissive parenting often results in children who rank low in happiness and self-regulation. These children are more likely to experience problems with authority and tend to perform poorly in school."

Ideally you would reason with children as far as possible why certain behaviour is unacceptable. (Authoritive parenting) However reasoning with a two year old is next to impossible and four year olds have limited capacity for being reasoned with. Young children have limited language/ thinking skills and sometimes a behaviourist approach of rewards/ sanctions is needed alongside explanation.

As far as possible children experience a consequence rather than an arbitary punisment, but again this is not always possible. The punishment needs to fit the crime wherever possible.

My apologies Creature - that'll teach me to skim read

I think permissive parenting is when you allow children to get away all sorts, including violence, swearing etc. Ie no boundaries at all. I think its fine to have some rules (no hitting, biting, bullying) etc that you do enforce clearly in an age appropriate way.
However, routinely and regularly inflicting harsh punishments for lots of things is oppressive and likely to leave a person highly self critical, lacking in self compassion and probably very afraid to experiment/be creative or make mistakes.
There is a difference.

"However, routinely and regularly inflicting harsh punishments for lots of things is oppressive and likely to leave a person highly self critical, lacking in self compassion and probably very afraid to experiment/be creative or make mistakes. "

So sending a child to their room or banning TV and computer or the naughty step is a harsh punishment. Surely there is no point in a punishment if the child is not going to care. Punishment needs to be mildly unpleasent to have an adversive affect.

I have made my children cry when they have had a telling off. Sometimes telling a child that you are disappointed in their behavour in a quiet voice is more effective than ranting. Perfecting that right look can make some children dissolve into tears. However for the disappointed stare approach to work you need a raport with your children. They need positive time and praise for desirable behaviour.

Some parents are too scared of upsetting their little darlings.

There is a lot of truth in the saying "The devil makes work for idle hands". Children get up to mischief if they are bored. Sometimes children need to be guided and shown how to play with toys appriopiately. Modelling good playskills can help to prevent toys being broken.

Four. Two. Seriously, get a grip. They don't need to be punished to the brink of tears and not doing so does not equal permissive parenting.

Sorry Really but you basically advocate screaming at a child, a 2 year old, until they're sobbing. Horrible.

I have two DC. That is not how I operate and my eldest knows his boundaries. There are times he cries but it isn't a target of mine to get him into that state.

I want to be a parent who is respected and who's DCs behave as they do because they've been set a good example.

Parenting isn't about bullying and overcoming wilful behaviour. I don't thing children are born that way - they generally want to please and it gets warped if they're at the receiving end of poor parenting.

"Sorry Really but you basically advocate screaming at a child, a 2 year old, until they're sobbing. Horrible. "

No I do not advocate screaming at a child. I advocate sanctions for poor behavoiur and clear set of rules. I advocate punishments that actually upset the little darlings, so that they remember not to misbehave in future. Ie. no computer time or banning the TV or the naughty step or maybe sending a child to their room, or making them miss a treat, or taking away toys. Not all misbehaviour has natural consequences that is suitable for punishment.

It is unreasonable to expect a small child to look after toys if they have not been shown how. Learning to tidy away toys prevents stuff from getting broken. It also prevents accidents as people can trip up over toys lying around.

How does a young child know that they should respect other people's possessions if they have been never been told. If the child fails to listen and breaks lots of toys repeatly then an alternative to a gentle discussion is needed.

I realise it may well upset the sentimentalities of some posters, but four year olds do get punished in school for similar behaviour. Imagine if CreatureRetorts junior is sobbbing because he has been made to miss playtime becuase he has diliberately broken toys in the reception classroom and been told off by the teacher. The teachers would laugh if CreatureRetorts came to complain that her little brat darling had been made to cry.

What will happen if the child goes to friends house and breaks a lightsabre on purpose? How would you feel if parents refuse to let your child play with their children because they are fed up of their pocessions being trashed. It would be red rag to a bull to tell them that they should either buy disposible toys (to be played with once!) or high quality expensive stuff. Prehaps the answer is to have higher expectations of behaviour.

As parents we have duty to teach our children socially acceptable behaviour. Sometimes upsetting our children with sanctions because they cannot be reasoned with is kinder in the long term.

If a playhouse window can be smashed by a plastic lightsabre then it is dangerous and not fit for purpose IMO. Was it sold as a playhouse or a shed? I find it that a company would put glass in a child's toy. It could just as easily have been smashed by a misdirected ball or any other normal garden - which is just the place for vigorous play because there is nothing breakable out there!

Obviously you were not to know this beforehand, but I would seriously replace the windows with tough perspex or some other not-easily-breakable material. Or remove the glass altogether, and have the windows just be holes. One of those is what I would expect to see in a child's playhouse.

You can absolutely teach respect for belongings without "harsh punishments" and fear etc. You start from the other side, by modelling respectful behaviour with your own belongings, by encouraging/enforcing cleaning up and proper care of toys so that they don't get trashed and broken, by not replacing stuff as soon as it gets broken even if it was an accident and by teaching/showing/enforcing how to play with things appropriately - ie, if they are being too rough with something, it gets taken off them until they can be trusted to play nicely with it.

I don't think parents should avoid ever upsetting their DC or be afraid of it, but to set out deliberately to upset them is counterproductive IMO.

I mean, it's just revenge isn't it? You've upset me (broken my rules) so I'm going to make you suffer now.

Doesn't mean they're actually absorbing the sentiment you want the to absorb or learning the moral value of the rule. They're just learning not to get on the wrong side of you. Which means once they realise that they're big enough not to have to obey you any more, god help that they've somehow picked up some decent morals along the way.

One minute we are being called 'helicopter' parents, then the next we aren't supervising them closely enough. DH was supervising them properly. We don't follow them around the garden like they're babies any more but we are either in the garden (or in back rooms with the door open) when they are. I don't know how I'd get ANYTHING done otherwise.

They were 'told off' and the lightsabers were taken away as 'punishment' but it was DS1's birthday so I didn't not to ruin his day (whatever...) but they were upset by that anyway.

I understand ReallyTired's view. I think using such an emotive phrase set you up for some flaming but by 'until they're sobbing' you simply meant use a punishment that demonstrably makes an impact on them. I reserve that kind of punishment for really bad stuff, like violence and running away in public etc. I do use the naughty step and I confiscate toys but I really try to get them to understand their own behaviour so perhaps there's too much talking...?

Yep, they do have TOO MUCH STUFF. As I said earlier, sadly this is beyond my control.

It's a thin plastic that isn't dangerous when it's broken but can be broken extremely easily (DH cracked one little section when he was fitting them)

Oh & thank you PinkBiscuits - I did see what you said & I appreciate that. They are lovely boys :)

OP, my kids have a lot of stuff too and v indulgent family and friends. On birthdays and Christmases I have quietly filled a bin bag for each child with the presents and tucked them away in the garage. They have then got them later in the year. I also realised that I didn't need to get them a lot because everyone else gets them stuff. Drip feeding the presents means they appreciate it more. Mine are 4 and 2 as well.

Hi, OP.
Sometimes we all wonder if we have bred a brat! don't worry too much.

I don't believe that screaming (or smacking) teaches the children anything about changing the behaviour in this situation, but possibly putting up with some screaming might? ....... its about learning to treat things differently, and although your 2yr old is on the first steps of the learning curve, he can begin to learn.

You could start by clearing away 50% of the toys (loft?) so options are reduced, and much loved items may have to be asked for by request. You can cycle through frequently, if you have room to store in a spare room, or wardrobes?

Mainly, I would start removing toys when they are not played with nicely (handled correctly/safely/sensibly). With a very calm "Mummy is taking this away because you are not playing nicely with it"
Hard work at the outset, because you have to be on top of it the whole time ....and as I said, you would have to tolerate a lot of child wailing at the beginning, but they do learn very quickly!!

A couple of caveats ......1) toys these days do seem to break at the drop of a hat, so the children may not be wholly responsible for toys which just aren't up to robust play & 2) some children are innately 'heavy handed', while not being intentionally (or even casually) destructive. My DD2 could break something just by looking at it. Which may be genetic .....given the number of broken dishes, mugs & glasses I have managed to break over the years.

Yes, I thought that made sense Novice, but I find that they're getting presents all the time and they appreciate things even less. I use them for rewards too sometimes but what with parcels form grandprents, charity shop toys from DF etc there is a constant supply of new stuff!

DS2 got DS2 a pirate hook for his birthday & DS1 said 'Is that all you got me?' even though he really liked it ???

I found that last year (constantly getting presents) and really struggled with what to do. We decided that they would get presents in 4 batches, birthday, Xmas, Easter and holidays and so far that's working. I really understand your issue.

If one of mine had said that to the other, the present would immediately be taken away and they would be naughty stepped. The present wouldn't return for a long while!

I have also started doing things like I will buy for one child and not the other so that they understand that sometimes its your turn and sometimes its not.

Also, they get to choose presents for birthday parties, the 2 year old is in charge of handing over the presents and we do a thing of handing toys over to younger cousins as they get a lot from older cousins.

I am hoping every little bit helps teach them the right values so they are not entitled. It's a challenge though!

ReallyTired, do fuck off. My child is not a brat. He's very well behaved and I don't have to resort to reducing him to sobbing in order for him to understand things. Unlike you.

You seem to think that my children dont cry - of course they do. I just don't make it my aim - as you do. Odd woman.

I actually don't think its a question of having too much ,I think to a degree its down to the individual . My children ( older now) could easily have been considered spoilt ,they literally had everything they wanted ( still do ) but all of their possessions are immaculate and always have been because that have been bought up to respect things and also because by nature they both like nice things and are generally tidy people . Most of our toys and games look untouched when we come to pass them on .

Can you try to stem the flow of "stuff" a bit either by talking to grandparents or just intercepting it if they are abroad? I have this problem a bit with DP's family and I find it really irritating. I think children should know that they have to sometimes work and wait for things and that not everything comes in a magical parcel as soon as they want it. Plus I'm fed up of car boot crap because it's almost always broken or non working and DS gets really excited about it and then doesn't understand when I say somebody has left batteries in it for 10 years and they have corroded the working parts so no, even if I put new batteries in it they won't work. It just reinforces the throwaway nature of stuff too I think, whereas I'm a bit more careful when buying second hand and like to know stuff actually works and then take care of it.

DP is a bit "I want this now just because I want it" and I think that's because his family always just bought him stuff as he was the youngest by far. He's not as bad as my ex though! DS is okay mostly. We're starting to introduce the idea of earning things through good behaviour and he can spend 5 stars on a small thing (magazine/sticker book) or save up 10 for a bigger thing (a DS game usually) - perhaps you could do this with toys received, put them away in a "prize cupboard" and save a smaller amount for special occasions (birthdays etc)

In the school of hard knocks, when it's gone, it's gone. More kindly, though, you pay attention to how the children are playing and help them to play appropriately, put toys away properly and generally take care of them.

They're only spoilt if you just give them lots of stuff, take no interest in their play, expect them to learn to be careful purely by osmosis and then just shout at them for getting it wrong, but then buy lads more stuff for them.

ReallyTired - the point of disciplining a child is not to make the cry. It's to teach them discipline. Crying may be a side effect, but it's not essential.

I've worked in schools my whole adult life and have yet to meet a teacher who views their role in discipline as 'making children sob'. The ONLY determinant of an effective behavioural sanction is if it reduces the recurrence of the behaviour.
As someone above put it, crying is a side effect sometimes but never the aim. And if a teacher were trying to make my child cry vs just rolling out a sensible sanction that resulted in my child crying you can bet your bottom dollar I'd complain thinks of colleague who was disciplined for being verbally cruel to reception children instead of following the agreed school guidance... and who always had had the worst behaved of all three R classes

Crying is a often a side affect of using a sanction. The aim of discipline is to teach rather having like a disciple. Many parents do use negative reinforcement to discourage certain behaviour or rewards to encourage good behaviour.

The parents of spoilt children often avoid sanctioning their children in any shape of form because they cannot bare the risk of making their children cry. They take the easy way out.

"As someone above put it, crying is a side effect sometimes but never the aim. And if a teacher were trying to make my child cry vs just rolling out a sensible sanction that resulted in my child crying you can bet your bottom dollar I'd complain "

Every single school I have worked I have seen children crying after they have been told off or sanctioned. The teachers don't set out to make the child cry, but they are not scared to sanction awful behaviour either. Often the fact that an adult that they care about is disappointed in them is enough to make many children cry.

What would you do if the throughly sensible and fair sanction made your child cry? Not punishing unacceptable behaviour to avoid the risk of a child crying leads to spoilt brats. The children learn that they are above any kind of reproach and can do as they please.

I think the OP knows what I mean. Her children will not grow up to be spoilt as she was prepared to take action. ie. she took away the light sabres.