So sick of my four year old

[TeaJunky]

I know this will come across as really harsh, but I am pushed to the very brink of sanity with the consistently difficult behaviour of my four year old girl.

She is a child that is never happy with any given situation. She has to whine and complain and cry over every tiny,minute thing and it is driving me absolutely insane. I try my very best to accommodate her, I have tried praising and rewards and sticker charts, I have tried everything - but she still continues to make every single day as difficult as possible.

I have an 8 month old who I rarely get to spend time with since most of the day is taken up with my four year olds constant demands. I must admit, I mainly yell and shout my way through the day now. The other day she said to dh's sister, i wish you were my mummy. That broke my heart a little bit for her but day in day out her persistent dissatisfaction is becoming unbearable. I don't think it's all due to jealousy because she does dote on her little sister and she hardly gets any time/attention anyway because of the older ones attitude

I'm actually at the point where I am arguing with DH about this and just generally very unhappy. DH seems to think I'm taking it too far, but then he's not the one dealing with her all day. I'm sat here crying because I've yelled her into bed (issues with dinner/teeth/pyjamas/duvet/leaving bedroom door open/which teddies to have in bed. And that's just bedtime.

I am exhausted, drained and just sick to death.

Yes pip, dd goes into reception this September. She's staying in the same lovely school as the nursery and they've had some 'going up' days before the holidays, and dd is excited about her new class and often asks me how long left for school now, i miss school etc.

also somewhere down the thread someone if DD was creative and the answer is yes, very! I loved the idea of keeping a box of crayons/paper handy, so today on our walk we bought some paper and have left it out with her pencils and pens. She has been going to it now and then to have a scribble

Have you read 'how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk'?

I would really recommend this book, I have a dd who sounds similar to yours and this book was really useful for us.

Tea junky, I truly think you sound like you may benefit from going to your GP with your DP and them telling her what he's said to you, and that you print off this thread, and talk about the OP with a therapist.

It's so easy to give a dog a bad name and hang them. Your DD is reacting to your unavailability, and she's screaming for you to come back to her. You've abandoned her into your own head, and are labelling her as difficult instead of looking deeply at yourself.

Go to your GP and go on ADs. No shame in asking for help, and no shame is getting it. You owe it to your self, your DP and your dcs to be as well and a healthy as you can.

Don't waste your Dds childhood struggling with this. She's already forming memories. Go ASAP to the GP.
Ss won't take your kids off you - that above all you say is so unreasonable that I have to say its a big red flag for depression.

You are not yourself, and everything is a burden to you.

Ads can help you climb out of the mummy trenches and get your life back.

Best of luck with it. We've all been there - there is no shame in getting help, but a lot of shame in struggling unsuccessfully and destroying a childhood and a relationship when you needn't.

Exotic has offered some fantastic advice.

The problem may be that she is trying to get a rise out of you and by whining she is getting it. My DD did this recently and it took her screaming the place down and me ignoring it and repeatedly (but silently) putting her back on the bed when she was naughty for her to get the jist. My mum and DH stood outside the door while I dealt with it so that they could give me a hug afterwards. Having their support meant the world. Also, we all stuck to the same punishment. She had to sit on the bed until she had done three minutes of silence and apologised for her behaviour.

We have quick bedtimes. The DCs can have stories in the day but at night it's pjs, teeth, wee and bed. Otherwise they will start pestering for silly things like another wee, another drink, door open, door closed, teddies, etc. If we fall in to this I have to walk away and leave them to get to sleep on their own or they'd mess about all night.

Parenthood is hard and full of horrible decisions and constant guilt. You think you're doing everything wrong. They don't tell you that they go from crying newborns to whining, demanding big kids. Everyone has lulls and feels like nothing is working but this too shall pass and you will then have a lovely, contented DD who isn't driving you up the wall. Good luck.

That's good OP . It was I who said about being creative.

I buy blocks of paper, colouring books and art supplies constantly and dd can nearly always be diverted onto them. Not only that if she's restless and looking for trouble she will often notice a new activity in the box and we will do that. To be honest she prefers to do stuff herself which is just as well as I am utterly crap at all things crafty or creative. Also because she was getting through so much paper I got her a black/white board from Ikea and loads of chalks and pens, at age 4 she was never off it.

You do sound a bit more positive, that's great. Sometimes just sharing things and getting a bit of outside input can make all the difference. It's a rut and sometimes you need a hand to get out of it.

I don't think that it is anything to do with depression and I don't think that you need to see the GP. I don't think that pointing out that OP is an adult and is being horrible to a DC is helpful!
OP clearly wishes to change - that is why she started it.
I am highly sceptical that anyone with a young child and a baby and lack of sleep+ the other stresses of modern life gets it 'right' all the time and handles every situation in a positive manner. It is also a fact that some children are much harder work than others- a friend had a demanding DD who moaned constantly and it was difficult to like her at that stage.

They have just got into a rut of negative patterns of behaviour. They just need to break free of it. There is lots of advice on here. Much of it is simple e.g give plenty of warning- don't suddenly say it is bedtime.

It will improve once she starts school. The very fact that OP feels more positive is a great start- it will show up clearly in body language.

It is a question of picking your battles- OP saw that a princess outfit wasn't worth a fight and got the compromise.

DS can be like this. His glass is half empty. I'll suggest we go to the playground he likes, and instead of being happy about it he'll strop and say he wanted to go to instead.

I know you say you've tried sticker charts but what was the system you used? DS won't be "good" for a sticker in general, but we have found it's helped when it's designed to help him learn specific things. The way our chart works is that he has two things at a time that he is learning to do, and he gets stickers if he gets them, and that's worked for us. (He also gets stickers for anything he does which I feel I want to reward him for, but whether that's had any effect I can't say).

At first his two things were learning to wipe his own bum, and get dressed on his own. It was very slow progress! and I realised after a while that getting dressed on his own wasn't specific enough, what I actually wanted him to do was not only get dressed on his own, but also do it without fuss. I mean, when it's taken him 50 minutes to get dressed, with loads of whining, refusing etc etc but he has technically done it all himself, should he get a sticker or not?! So I broke it down into two steps, "getting dressed by yourself" and "getting dressed without fuss" and he gets a sticker for whichever he manages.

And, although it's been slow, it has actually worked! He can now wipe his own bum and get dressed by himself. We're working on the "without fuss" but it's so much better. He now gets a sticker if he tries something new at dinner (that was becoming an issue) and so far so good, he's tried a few new foods this week. It's taken a few weeks to get to that point. I like that we have at least two things he's learning at a time, so if he gets a bit stuck on one, he might at least be able to make progress on the other one.

The way our chart works (no idea if this has anything to do with the success) is that we award a sticker on the spot, then at the end of the day before bedtime, we give him 5p per sticker (outright bribery ) which he puts in his money box. We also make a big fuss if he gets a new "world record" number of stickers. When he has enough to actually buy something we go to the shops together.

I'm not sure if the bribery is the main motivating factor though, I think it might be more simply that we're focussing on a couple of things he should be capable of doing and heaping praise on him when he gets it right. But whatever it is, it's worked for us.

I'm not saying it will solve everything! But I found seeing some positive change very encouraging.

Hmmm. Two thoughts:

1. why have you been doing all the questionnaires?
2. do you think your child's behaviour is abnormal for a four year old?

Look, I don't think it much matters if it's called depression or chronic stress or just needing parenting lessons. I'm just a bit as to how anyone can read this thread and assume that it's just that the OPs daughter is particularly difficult when there's no evidence she's behaving any differently to any other four year old. They are pains in the asses frequently. Also, exoticfruits, who here has suggested that everyone else gets it right all of the time?

I hear:

• stress
• exhaustion
• anxiety
• feeling overwhelmed by everyday demands of parenting
• negativity
• lots of stressful life changes over a short period of time, including financial issues, starting a new business and having a young family
• a sense of helplessness that this behaviour can't be controlled.
• the OPs Dh noticing she is not like herself/shouty/irritable/enraged
• the OP saying she's doesn't like who she's becoming

I was also wondering why the automatic thought would relate to social services be caused this is the sort of fear many women harbour when they are depressed but usually wouldn't cross someone's mind if they had a background in psychology and were feeling fine in themselves. Why would we be involved? This fear speaks to that core cultural belief that women with PND are failures or crazy women when mainly, for most, it's just stress and exhaustion getting them down and necessitating some support, often just having time away and relaxation making the world of difference.

As to why someone shouldn't discuss this with a GP, what's the worst that could happen? Depression is not a dirty word you know. Hell in some circles it's practically trendy. Chronic stress (if this is more palatable as a description) is a serious health and wellbeing concern and some areas have stress reduction courses etc that are of value. If the GP says it just sounds like you're tired and need a break, so be it. Better that than avoid getting the right help because hey, it's just that OP has a particularly difficult child. Even if she is, managing your own stress as an adult will always be key. We could all do with support in learning these skills most of the time.

YY feeling overwhelmed, being constantly irritable/angry/feeling like every tiny setback is like a huge avalanche (very good similie!) and biting DH's head off when he tries to help, coupled with a fear of SS becoming involved (perhaps because you feel like you're doing so terribly that you are literally afraid somebody might want to take them away? Please, please believe me, even if there are some things you are omitting from your post, this is NOT the case. SS do not take children from mothers who are struggling but seeking help.) - all of these do scream stress/depression to me. Depression doesn't have to mean sitting crying in your pyjamas every day refusing to get out of bed. And it may well be a reaction to an extremely stressful situation, and that is fine.

I think that your first port of call needs to be your DH. Based on what you've posted, he is trying to support you but you are pushing him away. Please, let him support you. Let him barge in, let him take over for a bit. You're managing all on your own for 80% of the time - let him be in charge when he's around and give you a break! That doesn't mean you have to sit around and let him do everything (although you should for some of the time if you need that break) - it means that you let him take responsibility for the thinking and planning and endless managing that seems to go on when you have a very full on child who requires a lot of input and attention (just because of her age) and you have one in that age when they can sort of sit or crawl but not both and they are frustrated constantly, plus their demands for food are starting to kick in which means twice as much organisation for every mealtime and snacktime as well as making up bottles or sitting down breastfeeding, probably still several times a day. It's a logistical nightmare!

Unless he's being really critical of you and undermining things, it's really really good to let him do stuff a different way that you would do it. There is more than one way to skin a cat, let DC see that modelled from an early age. You're a team - start acting like one :) Delegate some of that responsibility, you're drowning under it. You don't get a medal for doing it all yourself, and a celebration party on your own is really boring. Let him carry you for a bit, as you would carry him if he was struggling with something. That's what marriage is all about.

You have had a wealth of good advice on this thread and I am not sure whether to add this.

I am clinically depressed, I have an 8yo and a 4yo. What helps me is having a chat at bedtime where we say our best and worst bits of the day.

It means we both have a chance to apologise and say what we will do differently tomorrow.

Sorry if that's irrelevant.

I 'flip out and go crazy' because I say I feel like he's barging in and taking over

Do you feel like you have to prove to him (and yourself) that you can cope with the demands of a 4yr & a baby? It's almost a bit like you are martyring (is that a word?) yourself.

Shouty, angry, stressed, anxious. I never feel like I can relax because I'm always on standby for either one or the other DD.
how do I overcome this though

GET HELP. Let your dh help you. Get a mothers help in, ask your parents, or your dh's if they are close.

You have NOTHING to prove. You don't have to do this all by yourself. No one will thank you for it.

dd wanted to wear her princess costume for the walk and normally I would have said no and a nice idea would have turned into a battle, but I said that's fine as long as you wear a cardigan over the dress and she happily agreed

How lovely. I used to let one of my dds wear her pjs more often than not, because on the grand scheme of things, it was a battle that I refused to fight. Now at school, she will happily get dressed in her uniform (but still rushes for her pjs after school, asap :D )

I don't think it is irrelevant MartyrStewart- sounds a great idea.

Listen to exotic. Great work with the art materials and princess dress!

Incidentally I am not SS . Stupid auto correct turned ss into we!!!!

There's a blog post on Postpartum Progress about being diagnosed with PND later on and I was reminded of it when I read Yoni' s post: second post from top here. That refusal to have help resonates.

When I had my first, I really bought into all these beliefs I should never leave him, want time for myself etc, was quite the mummy martyr. I still don't know if I was depressed per se because like you I did have lots of good days... but becoming a mother just provoked some rigidity, control freakery and perfectionism deep inside in me which I wouldn't at that point have seen as that. I used to think I was quite laid back as a mum because I didn't feel the need to obsess about routine or feeding etc and in fact I couldn't understand why other women seemed to need so much support with it. Yet looking back, I think part of my controlling was to never, ever admit I needed or would benefit from even a smidgen of support. I also found it impossible to admit to the bad bits. Everything was rosy. I was on board with it all. I was deeply uncomfortable if anyone ever said they found bits of it boring or frustrating or tedious, as if admitting this would be an admission of failure. Not very healthy!

Anyway, I do think I was ticking along but developing some unhelpful beliefs. I took it all far too seriously. I analysed everything. I took rabid MN threads on whatever parenting topic of the day deeply to heart if I sensed implications I was not measuring up. Again, all of this was simmering beneath the surface rather than a full scale issue with my pfb. Yet as soon as I was pregnant with ds2, I could feel the cracks in my shiny mummy veneer... there were financial issues, my father was ill and we are estranged, work was incredibly problematic due to a very volatile new colleague and protracted renegotiating of contracts that meant I didn't even know if I would get maternity at one point etc... all those straws just kept piling up.

The final straw was appropriately stupid. I lost my handheld maternity notes and it was The End of the World. I found myself at 28 weeks pregnant snivelling in the midwives office telling her I couldn't cope.

I'm really not that into labels if it seems I'm pushing this. Sometimes I think PND is just a phrase for 'have had too much, need a break'. Often I think it's the reality of modern life when women are not surrounded by support and have so much else going on in their lives. It really is unrelenting and I think many professional and educated women in particular have unrealistic expectations that it should be smoother than it is, no doubt propped up by dogmatic and judgmental media articles that suggest, say, that because their toddler's a screaming banshee it's because they weren't fed right from birth/they're not getting enough love and attention/they are playing with non-organic plastic toys/their parents (or more usually mother) isn't following an appropriately evidence-based approved programme of enriching developmental activities supplemented by child centred behavioural management techniques. Sometimes a screaming banshee of a toddler's just a..... toddler being a toddler. They really are pains in the asses who think the world revolves around them. The mistake is to believe that this means anything about them or you. The key to sanity is to learn to let them chunter on and not need a 'strategy' for everything and trust it will pass but get regular time away from the chaos and drudgery of it all so you can appreciate the moments of fun and beauty when they are there.

dd wanted to wear her princess costume for the walk and normally I would have said no and a nice idea would have turned into a battle, but I said that's fine as long as you wear a cardigan over the dress and she happily agreed

Love this. This is not a battle I would ever have. At one point ds wore his spiderman costume everywhere! He has happy, warm and dry which was the main thing.

differentnameforthis - yes actually, you're right. I do feel as though I have to prove to him, myself and the entire world that I am managing perfectly well with a 4 year old and a baby. Its just how I feel inside. When he is, say, doing bedtime, a tiny part of me thinks 'he's doing my job'. When DH helps with the cleaning/household chores, I feel as though what I do is not good enough. We talked about one particular chore of hoovering the other day , and I explained to him that when he walks in and starts hoovering, it really makes me feel defensive and as though nothing is good enough. DH said he's only doing it because practically he can see it needs doing and because it makes him feel comfortable to sit down/ eat whatever ( DH is quite the clean freak). It's not a declaration of anyone's competence or incompetence; it's just a chore that needs doing! After that conversation,
I've noticed him asking me 'is it ok if i Hoover now' or 'I'll Hoover when you've gone in the shower then' and he does back off when I say no because x y z.

working9while5 your posts on this thread are fantastic and resonate so much with me. I found the first year of dc1's life a breeze, by and large, but the first year with two pushed me to the brink of sanity. Looking back, I'm fairly certain I had some undiagnosed PND going on but I would never, could never have admitted to it (MH issues in my family that I was terrified of inheriting).

OP, a lot of my problem at the time was frustration at my very demanding, non-sleeping, constantly breastfeeding baby. 8mo is a particularly difficult age, as Yoni points out. But I couldn't very well express that to her because, well, she was just a baby. So my frustration diverted itself to my 3yo, because he at least had some degree of control over his actions. It was very easy to forget that he was still little and needy and learning. He even said to me once "but mummy, I'm little too!" :( I felt shit about myself every single night for not being able to divide myself equally between them (and still have enough left over to be wife, friend, daughter, fulfilled independent person and all the other shit that society tells us we ought to be).

My kids are now 4 and 2. They are lively, lovely, cheery, funny little people (most of the time). I am so much more relaxed and capable (most of the time). Some of that is circumstantial, in that previously stressful stuff like housing has improved, so hopefully your new business will help things in that regard. There is loads of good advice on this thread, stuff I did and still do to help things go smoothly. Not picking your battles is a great start. Onward and upward! :)

There's so much good advice and I'm so pleased to hear that things are looking better!

Just to add to the advice (sorry if I'm repeating anything as I skimmed read some of it) - How physical are you with your dd?
Some 'stroppy' children really respond to lots of physical contact. Lots of hugs and games involving physical contact.
A 10 minute 'I'm the cuddle monster and I'm coming to get you!' game sometimes relieves the tension for the child and the adult. Try it if its not something you usually do. Its a lot of fun :)

Tea, I wonder why you feel so strongly about the housework and childcare being "yours" to the point you are feeling defensive if your DH picks up the Hoover. Was it always this way or is this just recently? I only ask because to me it seems unusual for someone to want to take all of this on by themselves rather than sharing the load with their partner. To me in an equal and healthy relationship, the running of the house is a joint responsibility to include housework, childcare and bringing money into the household. Your DH might work out of the home but that doesn't make you responsible for everything in it. You take care of these things when he is gone, and when he is at home you both pitch in to tackle it together. That's what being a couple is about, nobody expects you to do this all alone.

Yep, I'm with Bees. I appreciate that you're upset, but how upset do you think your daughter is? She can feel your anger and believe me, she knows you are sick of her. She is 4 and the person she loves most in the world is sick of her and hasn't a nice word to say about her. How do you think she feels? How would you feel in her position? You are the adult, it is your job to make things right here, not hers. I certainly get sick of my toddler very often, but I know that is my problem, not his. You can control your behaviour, she cannot because she is four. You get the children you deserve.

Yoni love your post about the child who has to be first at everything, i have one of those and hadn't thought of it as a pecking order issue, after a particularly frustrating bedtime where he was upset as dd got her pjs on first i told him not to worry, it's not a competition etc only to be told, "in my world everything's a competition!"

Babies there is a good bit in Siblings Without Rivalry about competition between siblings IIRC.

I have found this website very helpful and enlightening. I have a very strong willed DS and I had got to the point of just being stressed out, screaming mother which no fun at all. Nothing I was trying worked i.e. punishments, consequences, time outs. He just seemed to get worse and more aggressive. I have been trying the techniques on this website for only 3 days and I have already seen an improvement my DS got dressed and out the house this morning with not a single raised voice from me!! This is a huge improvement and so lovely and this meant I didn't feel like a bad parent and there was lots of love and warmth between me and my DS.

www.ahaparenting.com