So sick of my four year old

[TeaJunky]

I know this will come across as really harsh, but I am pushed to the very brink of sanity with the consistently difficult behaviour of my four year old girl.

She is a child that is never happy with any given situation. She has to whine and complain and cry over every tiny,minute thing and it is driving me absolutely insane. I try my very best to accommodate her, I have tried praising and rewards and sticker charts, I have tried everything - but she still continues to make every single day as difficult as possible.

I have an 8 month old who I rarely get to spend time with since most of the day is taken up with my four year olds constant demands. I must admit, I mainly yell and shout my way through the day now. The other day she said to dh's sister, i wish you were my mummy. That broke my heart a little bit for her but day in day out her persistent dissatisfaction is becoming unbearable. I don't think it's all due to jealousy because she does dote on her little sister and she hardly gets any time/attention anyway because of the older ones attitude

I'm actually at the point where I am arguing with DH about this and just generally very unhappy. DH seems to think I'm taking it too far, but then he's not the one dealing with her all day. I'm sat here crying because I've yelled her into bed (issues with dinner/teeth/pyjamas/duvet/leaving bedroom door open/which teddies to have in bed. And that's just bedtime.

I am exhausted, drained and just sick to death.

No, of course we've fallen into that cycle but he is 4 and giving her titles like a whinge is only going to lead to you both getting more frustrated. I have also researched a lot into the subject
It's all 99% of the time attention. That isn't a bad thing 4 year olds need good quality attention. Once they seem to be having more if this the negative attention will dwindle. Doesn't have to be alone time or hours just playing, talking, touching her hand/arm and letting her know you love her (not telling her) and actually want her company. Spending most of the day shouting means she will spend more time whinging and on it will go.

I don't agree that it's always about attention. I have always been very hands on with my dc, doing tons of activities and even just quiet down time, reading, baking etc and my dd was STILL like this. I honestly think in some children it's just a stage they go through. I think it's an extension of the toddler stage in some dc, that their abilities are not caught up with their ideas and intelligence levels. There were no toddler tantrums with dd, the age of 4 - 5 was worse by far. I remember posting after a trip out and car journey where my dd screamed and kicked the back of my seat in the car for a full hour all the way home. I was in utter despair, crying etc and it really helped to get the lovely non judgemental responses that I did.

For those of you saying oh just be nicer, that's hard when it's met constantly with screaming and aggression. Sometimes you just need to end the current stand off by any means to retain your sanity. The OP has posted here asking for help, which is great and shows a great Mum if you ask me, who is worried and sad and wants to change this.

OP it WILL pass. One day you will suddenly thing to yourself "wow dd hasn't had a screaming fit for weeks!"

Thisisyoursong, are you saying that it is the child's personality? That it isn't the adult's responsibility to make the difference? How does that actually help?

The first step to change is really knowing your problem. Everyone has to work at being a parent and everyone has to make changes when it's not working out. Having a positive attitude and not blaming your child for your behaviour is an important way of working towards change. It's not about being belittling or critical. If it's not easy and help is needed, that's what's needed. I don't see how sugarcoating it in a way that implies it is the child's personality and everyone feels like that is actually honest and supportive.

No one should beat themselves up or be self-hating about the stuff that doesn't come naturally to them, looking for help is important and being self compassionate about where you don't have a clue what to do is great too. Negativity about the child will never lead anywhere positive and the first step towards changing is taking full responsibility for the adult role. It's like if you lock your keys in the car. You can rage and spit and kick the car door but it's not going to get the keys out. The first thing you have to do is accept what is. Right now, there's a whole lot of negativity and displacement of the feeling of confusion and helplessness onto this child's behaviour. The reason that this behaviour cycles and escalates is because unfortunately this attitude even if it's understandable only adds fuel to the fire and will worsen and intensify the very behaviour it relates to. This is just the way this stuff goes. The OP doesn't need to be told that yes her child is demon spawn with behaviour that needs to be treated as a malignancy and destroyed. This helps no one. There's nothing at all to be gained by pretending this behaviour is intrinsic to this child or pretending that it isn't ultimately an adults responsibility to make the changes in this situation.

You have to start from where you are. An attitude change in and of itself is likely to make real changes in this relationship.

You say it's not all about attention then go on to describe an episode where you were driving and your DD was restricted in a car seat for an extended period of time.
Of course sometimes it's tiredness, hunger or them not feeling well but I wouldn't just label a 4 year old as difficult

Op I have a 4yr old who sounds like your dd. I've read the advice on this thread with interest and there is some great stuff on here.

I hope you take that away with you and forget the less helpful stuff.

YoniBotts two fantastic posts that have really resonated with me. Thank you.

What is she like at nursery or with other people? Probably a delight! Kids do tend to be more tricky with their parents.

She may be jealous of the baby and being a 'big girl' can be a bit daunting (oh the responsibility!). Having kids is tiring at the best of times, and a baby and preschooler mush be knackering.

Some children are a bit eyore-ish. All you can do is be calm, keep them busy and not to rise/get angry/go crazy trying to pacify them.

Have a cuddle and a chat after any incident when its just the two of you and you have time (so not rushing to feed the baby, make dinner etc). Remind her of all the good things she days and does. Ask why she is sometimes cross and upset and explain that this makes everyone else feel X, Y, Z. Don't tell her that she is silly or naughty for her feelings - she can't help it! Try to work out what she can do to feel happier when she feels a strop coming on. I find gardening/pot plants take up a lot of concentration, focus and energy.

I was a terrible worrier from early on - and started on the road to depression from about 6. No-one ever had time to speak to me, or even be particularly kind to me, so I was the 'moody', 'grumpy', 'The Misery' or 'quiet' one. No, I was pissing myself about death, the Black Panthers (I read newspapers from an early age), the fact that in a zillion years the earth will crash into the sun, and the existance or not of God/devil/ghosts. Oh, and the fact that I didn't want to grow up ever.

After just having been swimming, soft play and taken to buy a toy. She was tired , but those tantrums were an every day feature and I was using that as an example of why I posted in the end about her and received lots of support.

I agree the people saying you just need to man up etc haven't been there.

I'm not saying it's fantastic to be like this or feel this way, but Christ, poor OP can't help the way she feels! I'm pretty sure everyone goes through a stage of parenting that they find tough and hard to see the good in, whether that's the relentless newborn period, the "terrible twos", teenagers. Just because four isn't a common age to struggle with (although I'd beg to differ looking at the amount of threads on here recently) it doesn't mean it's wrong to struggle with it or that OP is a terrible parent. It's a phase! That her DD will grow out of, and she will come through and think "Thank god that's over and I have my lovely DD back". As long as you're not actually kicking her down the stairs or screaming at her that you wish she'd never been born, you know?

I was talking to my mum the other day and she confessed her one low point of parenting, I was about 6 and screaming/whining so much after a bath that she just totally lashed out and pushed me off her lap onto the bathroom floor, still wrapped in a towel. She felt terrible and immediately grabbed me and cuddled me and cried, and she clearly felt terrible about it 20 years later, but do you know what? Supposedly the most traumatic event of my (very good) childhood, that has haunted her for decades, and I don't even remember it. Not one bit and it has not affected our relationship at all.

I also remembered something else that I picked up from one of the books I read, which I forgot to include last night. The author of the book said that children often try to assert their authority and status as the most important person in the house by doing things like insisting on going through doors or up/down stairs first, opening doors, answering the telephone. The book's advice was to be really tough on this and instil respect for you as the "top" person in the household by instilling that YOU are the one who always goes first, opens doors, and answers the phone.

I don't agree with that 100% (sounds too much like pack theory for dogs!) but it did strike a chord because DS always wants to go first, open the door etc, and I hadn't seen this as him asserting himself as more important than me. So instead of saying "I'm more important than you therefore I go first" (might work for some, of course) I decided the rule would be "Nobody is more important than anybody else, the person who gets to the stairs/door first goes first" and if he wants to walk first on a path or whatever then he has to walk fast and not keep stopping in the way.

It's not about changing their "delinquent" behaviour, it's just about changing the way you react to their behaviour in order to reduce conflict and blowing things all out of proportion. When you're struggling with your relationship, your relationship is paramount - the other things, like co-operative behaviour and politeness, will follow.

working9while5 - I don't really get where you have come from. I never said or implied that this is a child's personality, in fact that is the total opposite of what I think. No one said that the OP's child is 'demon spawn' and she has 'behaviour that needs to be treated as a malignancy and destroyed'. Your post has me totally baffled. I do believe that just like the child doesn't need to be 'blamed', the OP shouldn't be 'blamed' either. I do believe that factors like a child's and an adult's temperament have an impact as well as the way an adult was brought up themselves.

What I did say was that 'No one tells us that some children need to be taught to manage their emotions and how to do this.'. I totally stand by this, emotional regulation is something that needs to be learned. Some children learn automatically, some children need help to learn it. That's why I loved the Incredible Years course so much, as a parent it teaches you to understand a child's behaviour first and then how to modify it. It teaches about finding the positive opposite behaviours to praise. Its really really positive and is based on a pyramid (shown here - I haven't read the blog, but she has done the same course which I did) which has play at the bottom and consequences at the top (which should be the last resort, and which you should need to use the least of).

I've got no idea how much difficult behaviour in children is attention seeking, but I do agree that the OP's DD's behaviour seems to be attention seeking. My opinion is that it can be helped by lots of positive attention, ignoring the unwanted behaviour and by modelling and teaching emotional regulation.

Go back up the thread and read the posts where OP is told that she needs to basically give her daughter no quarter and where posts saying she needs to work on her negativity are construed as belittling/unkind/critical/blaming.

We can't help our feelings but we have to manage our behaviour. As for all these posts saying people suggesting the adult needs to be the adult 'havent been there', this is quite the assumption.

I had a really shitty year this year with severe PND with a similar age gap to OP and there were times I felt trapped in hell. I shouted too much, I actually slapped ds1 once, I was irritable and on edge and crawling out of my skin sometimes. Ultimately I have compassion for how hard I was working in a difficult situation and I appreciate I was doing my best. Yet there is a difference between this and adopting a ''poor me my child is such a demanding whinger' attitude which helps no one even if there is a context that makes it understandable. Saying you are at the end of your tether is one thing. Saying its because you have the kind of child who deliberately makes life difficult isn't necessarily leading to helpful change.

Thoughts will come and go about our kids being wilful/manipulative/negative/demanding - but it's crucial we as grown ups DO NOT buy into these, no matter how shitty we feel or exhausted and drained we are because it really damages kids where this goes unchecked or becomes chronic. The way the OP is written really sounds to me like there is genuine resentment and dislike creeping in. So I just can't be all 'there, there' about having such a negative attitude to a young child. I totally accept these thoughts are normal, most parents with young siblings will have them (probably many times a day, let's be honest). I said clearly it's stressful and joyless and hard work. I feel for the OP. I just won't diminish the fact this is a sign that help is needed by saying everyone always feels like this because they don't. It's a sign of chronic stress and demands intervention.

As adults we have the responsibility to realise our young children are not going out of their way to be difficult. We also have the responsibility that if we can't let go of those negative thought patterns to get help. It isn't about blame but it is about responsibility. You can be compassionate towards the struggles you face and how hard it is without allowing yourself to tell the story that it is the child being difficult.

Some of it will be attention, definitely because of baby. Some will be your mental frame of mind. Some will be your daughter might be tired etc wtc and struggling to articulate.

She is only 4 - your baby will make her seem older and you may well think she should know better. But she's 4, still young and impulsive and needs a bit of babying every now and then.

My nearly 4 year old drives me insane at times but it's much better if I basically humour him, let small things go and negotiate. Also tell him what he should do, not what he isn't doing right. Having structure and routine helps as does a little bit of one on one time just me and him (we have a younger one too).

I would have a chat with your DH - he's clearly seeing something we don't.

Also just wondering how you've been since you've had your baby?

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to post.

Some of the posts are extremely helpful , and for that, more thanks, especially you yoni.

Dd and I are just heading out now, but I will reply properly when we get back. Lots to think over here.

I did speak to DH before.

He said he is walking on egg shells (and has been for months), because I'm 'always stressed out'. He said he tries to help me as much as he can (bath time/bed time, household chores) but I often refuse help and if I catch him doing it, I 'flip out and go crazy' because I say I feel like he's barging in and taking over.
He said I use the words 'sick and tired' a lot.
He said I'm always angry.

I don't think I'm depressed. But I guess I AM sick and tired of this rut I have got myself in to. Shouty, angry, stressed, anxious. I never feel like I can relax because I'm always on standby for either one or the other DD.
how do I overcome this though. I am draining myself out and dd is suffering in the process

I can sympathise op because an 8mo on their own is hard enough especially with accumulated sleep deprivation which everyone has at this stage making everything so much more difficult.

4yr olds can have a tendency to be like this it would seem. (Well going on my current 4yo anyway who is hard work at the moment!)

Anyway my twopennorth fwiw is too keep things simple, look after yourself and have some time to do something without the dc whether that is exercise if you have the energy or meeting up withh friends or even doing the shopping by yourself.

Be consistent, decide in the bedtime routine or tea and stick to it,.dont give in too debates. Ignore what you dont like as far as you can and praise the good. Congratulate yourselves that she is behaving well at nursery, so you must be getting something right ;-)

Finally take note of your dh. He is equally as capable of looking after dc, your way is not tye only way and some of his ways may be better than yours - just don't tell him!! Let him get on with it otherwise you are setting yourself up for a lifetime of being the one everyone looks to for everything.

A few people have mentioned a Parenting Group -having run the Incredible Years Program I can second this as being an excellent course. How do you find your Health Visitors? If you find them helpful maybe they would be able to point you in the right direction. There may be a wait as Public Services are stretched but you never know there may be a group coming up.

I'm sorry you feel how you do. You sound worn down. This course would help you find time for you also - this might seem like an impossibility when you are caught up in a stressful cycle but there are small things you will be taught that will help you take time out.

Some comments have been criticised but I think getting different opinions maybe helps you to get a sense of perspective. Some comments you will agree with and some you won't, but surely if everyone just gave you a pat and agreed that your daughter is terrible it wouldn't really help you to move on from this. You know your daughter isn't terrible and just a 4 year old whose mummy needs some support which is possibly why she is extra challenging at the moment.

You sound like I was. Always walking on egg shells - that's exactly how DH described me.

What has helped is getting time to myself - DH takes the children out for a couple of hours every other weekend or so. I also relax and let DH take over. He's also their parent and so what if he does it his way. My biggest underlying issue was that I hate my job especially as I work more days than I like. I've started tackling this by looking for jobs. Is there anything you feel resentful about?

See, now I wonder if you are a bit depressed. Did you know the symptoms of PND can be irritation/even rage? I had a good friend who never got a diagnosis who I would swear had it. She really grew to despise her older son for a period of time, was critical and belittling of her husband, everything seemed negative and homeless, she was worn out and on edge. Not tearful. Not sad. Just overwhelmed to the point everything seemed impossible/huge/out to get her. When she went back to work, you could see this gradual 'return to herself' and these things faded away.

I suppose before I had got myself, I always assumed PND meant a woman overwhelmed and wild eyed in the corner, possibly rocking or mute, cold and unbonded with her baby. It wasn't like that for me and the other women I met at PND group were the same. No one even knew with most of us. I was out visiting people, I took the boys solo to Ireland on the ferry numerous times, we went to under five activities and the playground and all that jazz. But I was drowning not waving.

Ask yourself honestly these questions:
Are the last few months a blur?
Do you feel a bit trapped or helpless right now?
Do you find it hard to relax?
How much fun do you have?
How many times a day do you laugh, sing, dance, feel silly?
Do you feel exhausted all the time?
Does every day feel relentless and exhausting with every little setback feeling like you are Sisyphus and your rock has rolled back down the hill?
Do you worry or feel on edge?
Do you feel constantly on edge?
Do you find it hard to rest and sleep when you get the chance?
Do you feel a shadow of the former you?
Do you enjoy your time with your children?
Do you feel warm, positive feelings about your life several times a week?
Do you feel actively grateful for what's good in your life?
Is this what you expected it would be like?

Some might say all of these things can be a challenge when you have young children and they'd be right. It's normal to feel stressed a lot. However, if you can't laugh, sing, dance, be silly and see the beauty in it as well as the challenge, everything seems negative and a bit colourless and you are feeling irritable, trapped and resentful, I would say you either are down or on the road to it. It's all in the degree and your Dh' s words suggest to me you are chronically stressed and its affecting your ability to see the good in your life and lowering your resistance to the challenges of living with young children.

I agree time to yourself would be a great start. Find time with friends. Get a cleaner. Have some alone time to recharge. A night away if you can stretch to it, time with Dh. New hobbies can help, away from being 'just a mum'. Self care is absolutely critical and maybe you're not having enough. It's impossible to be a relaxed and positive mother without it on whatever level it's needed for you. There's a great book called 'Joyful Parenting: an acceptance and commitment therapy guide to parenting in the early years' which really helped at my lowest: not only with behaviour management strategies but with realising how my emotions were controlling my behaviour in unhelpful and destructive ways and what I needed to do about it.

I agree with working about possible depression. I've definitely suspected that I've had PND and it's lifting now (youngest is 20 months). I almost went to the GP but felt scared too.

What would happen if the gp diagnosed me with PND? Would social services get involved?

No. I know people who've been diagnosed - they get treatment but no SS. Your children aren't at risk. At the very least it's worth a conversation with the HV if she's any good.

I was diagnosed with depression with a 1 and 3 year old at the time. I had nothing but support from the GP and anti depressants. The HV wasn't informed or anything like that. They changed how I felt about my DCs so drastically and how I reacted. My depression was mainly rage and irritation and an endless feeling that things would never get better. Like groundhog day. Always tired, no energy and fed up.

They took a month to start working fully but I felt better within 2 weeks tbh. I was on them for a year, I saw the GP regularly whilst on them and came off them slowly at the rate she recommended.

I would seriously go to your GP and also do a parenting course.

My kids are now 4 & 6 and it's tough anyway. But everything is so so much worse with depression. I didn't even know I had it. It took a friend challenging me to give me a reality check. When I completed the questionnaire at the GPs I scored a very bad score and that's when I realised, quite how bad I felt. If working's post resonates with you, please see your GP.

OP - loads of mothers have PND, and no, social services wouldn't get involved - having been there you may get details of useful HVs, groups at children's centres to go to, and possibly medication for a short or longer time. Children's centres can be really helpful.

Is your dd about to start school? My ds is, and all his nursery mates parents say they have all turned into screaming hellspawn over the last few months. Nursery staff says this always happens, some anxiety over starting school, some having grown out of nursery, and some just being four and realising they can use words to lash out. My ds sounds very like your dd.

Can you pick what 2 or 3 things are vital to you, and try really hard to ignore everything else and praise as much as you can? It helps. Also I try to tell ds about some of the nice or interesting things that happened that day when putting him to bed, partly to cheer me up. Let DH do bedtime if he wants, while you have 20 min to chill out - even if it takes longer, dd will learn that you and DH do things differently.

Hope you feel better soon - I have no miracle solution and ds had a 20 min tantrum in the supermarket checkout today, but mainly I'm coping...

TeaJunky - if you were diagnosed with depression = PND or otherwise - your GP would probably offer you the right treatment. This may be talking therapy or maybe some mild anti-depressants.

You sound very much like I did in the past. Angry, anxious, trying to control everything to try and make it work better. The thing that made it work better was listening to my DH (who said similar things to your DH) and I went ot see my GP and admitted life was rather pants and I needed some help. I was prescribed mild antidepressants which solved the anxiety issues I was having (the controlly thing) and I can honestly say my life is transformed. I am more relaxed, less anxious, able to let DH help, able to "pick the battles". I have stopped whining and whinging tbh.

Parenting is hard. Parenting when you are ill is even harder. Parenting is not supposed to be sole destroying - for your or anyone else in your family. There is helpthere. And SS would not get involved at all!

You could have been me writing a year ago. My DS is a 'glass half empty' sort of child and once he starts objecting to things there is no negotiation, no compromise, no forcing him to do anything he doesn't want.

He started school and I was really worried how he would cope in an environment where he had to conform.

TBH he has thrived and has learned a lot of skills for compromising and negotiating. Life is a lot less stressful and he is a lot less prone to tantrums. We still have the odd rocky day (usually when he is sickening for something) but he is much, much more fun to be around and we all laugh a lot more.

Is your DD starting school in September? It is only a few weeks away now.
Good luck.

But I don't think I'm depressed. I've done all the questionnaire thingies, heck, I have a degree in psychology, I'd be able to recognise the signs. (Which doesn't I cant get depressed obviously but I still don't believe I am because I have very good days too and I don't feel the major signs of depression such as changes in appetite/weight/sleep/lack of interest in general life etc ).
Today has been a good day. DH and I are opening our own business a week on Monday which should get me out and about and my mind occupied with something different (and hopefully alleviate some of our money worries). DD has a play date tomorrow and then a swimming lesson in the evening (which she loves) so hopefully tomorrow will be a good day too. I have been a lot more positive towards DD today and we went for a walk earlier, just the two of us (dd wanted to wear her princess costume for the walk and normally I would have said no and a nice idea would have turned into a battle, but I said that's fine as long as you wear a cardigan over the dress and she happily agreed ).