Tricky problem - please help! Can't describe this briefly!

[mrsbluesky]

This is horrid. Please bear with me, it might go on a bit. A few months ago, I found out that my three year old boy has been sexually abused by the adopted 8 year old daughter of a close friend. I have stopped contact with this child, and saw my GP who said that there should be no future issues arising from this, as he is so young, and as long as it does not happen again. At the time I was OK with this. As OK as possible under the circumstances anyway. I explained to DS that no-one is allowed to touch him there and that if anyone tries he can shout "NO" as loud as he can. He told me that the game that was being played is called Mummies and Babies, and I said that mummies aren't supposed to play with their babies willies. But my childminder, who he goes to on one day a week, and who is aware of the situation, has reported that my son has for the past 4 or 5 weeks been talking "inappropriately" and saying things like "shall we play with our willies" and "have you got a big willy" and has been even talking to her husband in this way. They try to distract him from this line of talk but he doesn't want to be distracted. He doesn't do this at home, or at the playgroup he goes to in the mornings. He seems happy and cheerful in every other respect, although wilful in a normal 3 year old kind of way. So I need to undo these knots. My instinct is not to go through the health visitor as I don't want him to be "the child who..." but he will start school nursery in September and if he displays this behaviour there I don't know what will happen. I have two other children 8 & 7, so I'm not a complete beginner, but I'm conpletely at sea with this problem. Any ideas?

did you tell the parents of the 8 yr old?

I'm not sure that what he is saying can be 100% linked to what happened as when ds and his mates get together (though they are 4) there is often a lot of willy and bum talk (even heard his mate comparing sizes when I took them swimming the other day).

If you are worried, I would go back to the GP.

Also, have you had a chat with him where you have told him that only he should play with his willy and preferably in the privacy of his own room?

It does sound that he is a bit confused and thinks that playing with willies is just a fun game to be had.

Oh god this is horrid. I may be totally wrong, but it occurs to me that perhaps he needs to get this out of his systme. He knows that mummy has stressed the privacy issue, so maybe he thinks that he shouldn't talk about it with you. Perhaps, as you are the 'safest' person in his life, you should encourage him to talk about it with you, respond to his talking about it and let his willy become totally normal and boring, IYSWIM. TBH, if he hadn't gone through the abuse, I would have said that his behaviour at the childminder wasn't at all unusual, but of course under the circumstances you have to consider what might be going through his mind. HTH

How long was the gap between the incidents and his new behaviour? I would just say "oh no we don't play those sorts of games" and keep it low key and look bored.

If the extent of the game was bound up in a mother/baby type game I wouldn't be too concerned. Presumably the gilr herself has a difficult background- and this stems from that. If it was more intrusive then I would be very worried about the girl. Have you spoken to your friend about it- what's her take on it. It seems a shame not to to meet up at all any more. Couldn;t you meet up but supervise 100% of the time?

Hi

I would call the NSPCC as I think you do need specialist advice, as I think you do have some questions in your head (may be wrong). This aprticular incident might be related to somethin ng from before I guess, but I ahve to say my NT 5 year old is pretty willy obsessed atm, and the whole gender willy difference thing does have a tendency to appear when least expected. I am as sure as I can be that DS2 has never been abused.

I would use this as a cue to speak to specialists.

Really sorry your son has been through this

Jimjams said it so well as usual. I wasn't sure how to phrase, so avoided it. I'd be wary of girl obviously, but I don't think an 8 year old is the same as an adult- there has to be more to it from her background iyswim.

I tend to agree with PrettyCandles on this one...my first thought was that your ds might need to be getting it 'out of his system' in some way. Sadly, thats probably what the girl was attempting to do too - in a different way. I think I would try and get some professional input for myself at this point, probably - just a chat with someone who really knows what they're talking about, rather than a gp; like Peachyclair says, someone who could help differentiate the gender stuff from the 'working out what happened' stuff - there may well be both going on at the same time, which is confusing!

The advice you have been given so far is really great, MrsB. I have nothing to add other than my 3y10m DD (no history of abuse) is obsessed with willies or 'winkies' as she calls them. I think it is a phase that most kids go through, although obviously with what he has been through his behaviour seems to be more resonant. Very, very best wishes x

I'm also concerned about the 8yo girl, has anybody spoken to her about where this behaviour came from ?

I think I've over-reacted. I remember playing Doctors and Nurses with my best friend and her brother, we woud have been about 8 and he would have been about 4 or 5 at the time. Of course we said the 'you can see ours if you show us yours' and then didn't let him see ours. There's nothing really wrong with that. Are you sure that anything worse than that has happened between your ds and the friend's dd? I'm not asking you to give us details, that's entirely your own business.

OK. Yes I did tell her parents, and we did try to let the children all play together again, with very close attention. There are 5 when we get together. At some point the child in question managed to get my boy into the cloakroom (not the toilet) where his old potty was, (waiting to be thrown out as not needed any more) and got his pants and trousers down and helped him to do a wee. I told her that he doesn't need his potty anymore as he is completely independent. Also, on another occasion when we tried to get together again, the two of them went into another room (me and her mum were watching on the quiet), she pushed two chairs together, and he laid down on them as if the mummies and babies game was a very regular thing. So I can't have any more of this, and have banned the child although I still see a lot of her mum. She (the mum) has taken it very seriously and is today going to see the child's psychologist alone to find out what help is available for her daughter. I feel for the child as it is fairly clear that she was abused by her birth mother, but my sympathy doesn't extend to letting her carry on!

I think that my little boy has found the experience of having his willy played with by her to be very pleasurable and is missing it. And so trying to get it to happen again. I would like to think that taking the bored approach that's been mentioned will fix it, but it is all new to me and I don't know if it will, or if he needs to debrief with a professional. I know that all little boys love their willies and endlessly compare etc, but she has coerced him into this being five years older and old enough to know better too, and because he loved playing with her anyway he has gone along with her game.

Thanks all for your messages, it's good to be able to talk about this at all, as I haven't wanted to air it in the playground with my usual mum friends.

BTW am I wrong to be reluctant to involve health visitors/gp etc? Maybe I should give the "bored" approach a few weeks and see if it goes away. I like the advice to let him know that he can play with his willy in the privacy of his room too! And I will talk to him about it some more, see how he's feeling now. We haven't discussed it since I caught them at it, so it's probably a good time to catch up on it.

I'm glad she is getting help. I'm not convinced that an eight year old who was abused is old enough to know better, but we can differ on this. If it was continuing of course you were right to stop contact.

You do need to give the ignoring / boredom a while- perhaps 20 years by which time he can do it in the privacy of his own flat.

I don't think a HV or GP can help much- I would call someone like NSPCC for a referral to a person who knows what they're talking about in this sort of case.

I'm sure that Childline would be able to advise.

I can understand you wanting to deal with this at home, initially, and your reluctance to see your DS labelled by the 'professionals' is 100% understandable

I think jimjams has it right and the bored approach will work. If you see him playing with himself, just calmly tell him it's not the sort of thing we do in public and if he wants to have a good fiddle, he can go and lie down in bed and do it. Lots of boys and girls go through major stretches of realising how much fun it is to fiddle and often, just diverting their attention or telling them they have to go and do it in private, is enough for them to stop it and focus on something else!

wouldn't harm getting anonymous advice from any of the childline/nspcc helplines if you felt you needed it though

Took me so long to type my latest I missed your new messages:)

I'm sure that the games have only involved playing with his willy, and not anything bottom related. the GP had a look too and said no sign of anything nasty.

I take the point re over-reacting, and I may well be. thanks all for giving me some perspective.

But my fear is really that he will try to get some willy action when he goes to the school nursery!

Nondeplume, the girl has many issues that her psychologist is helping her with, so this one can be added to the list, poor kid. She is a big-built girl and could easily overpower someone smaller to get her own way, so really needs to get this one sorted out. I have had such sympathy for her background that I've maybe been too giving/forgiving and I do feel guilty that I didn;t protect my little one to the extent that all this was able to happen...

MrsBlueSky, you sound really clear about it all...I'm glad the girl's Mum is getting some help for her, and totally agree about keeping them apart for the time being. I do think its right to be low key about it all - especially with ds - and you're probably spot on about him just missing the nice feelings, and/or playing with his friend.
I wouldn't want to involve GPs or HVs with him either - I would want an objective chat with someone for myself so I felt clearer about how to deal with it, and I would probably choose to talk to someone like an NSPCC counsellor, over the phone. But maybe Mumsnet feels like enough right now
Maybe, if he's still clearly missing something and needing to talk about it in a few weeks' time, that would be the time to get some more feedback from somewhere? Hopefully, you won't even need to.

Thanks Elibean, and thanks everyone. I am trying hard to be grown up about it! Here's what I am going to do - talk to my little one some more and let him express as far as he can how he feels about it. Ask his childminder to airily blank any advances he might make, and to say "we don't play those games, lets do such and such". Call NSPCC and get their view, just in case. Try to stop obsessing about all this as I really need to do some housework! Review the situation in a month's time.

Thanks again for your sane views and concern. I really appreciate being able to get advice and input in this way.

My DS is a bit older than yours (4.7) but does have and has had periods of intense interest in his willy, most of which depend on circumstances. For example, when he started at nursery school he went through a short phase of being keen on getting his willy out in public, and we subsequently discovered that the more reliably toilet-trained of them used to be sent off in groups of 3 or so to have a communal wee before going out to play etc. He also goes through periods of comparing sizes (with DH mostly) and other things like trying to stretch it (???) or generally waving it around in front of his younger sister (who is periodically equally fascinated with it).

I honestly think this is all standard developmental stuff and is something they all go through in any event. I think your respnse to it is pretty key. While I appreciate that you have gone through a very trying experience, I would try to make sure that you don't swing too far the other way and effectively ban all mention of it or have a bad reaction as you think it is evoking unpleasant situations, when there is always going to be a bit of general interest and experimentation. We just keep saying "your willy is private" (along with "put your willy away", "your willy is not a piece of elastic" and "no, DD does not want to play with your willy in the bath")and moving on to something more interesting.

You already seem to have a pretty good perspective on it. I think you're right not to want to 'professionalise' it by bringing in hvs etc - personally, I'd say that would be overkill for what he's expressing.

Better to treat the willy thing the same way as if there had been no 'situation'. My dd (3) is pretty fascinated by all genitalia stuff. Asked my dh the other day if he still had 'that penis thing' . And likes to fiddle with her 'minnie'. She has asked in the past if I will 'tickle' it, but I say that it's only for her, not for anyone else to touch.

You do need to keep it light, and not attach any anxiety to what is totally normal behaviour - but you seem to be doing pretty much that anyway. :)

PS - I remember playing mummmy and daddy games with my friend (we were 6) and her brother (9), where we showed each other things and talked about what was supposed to go where (but did not touch each other's whatnots) - it was just a kid's way of working out what on earth went on!

Being naked, talking, showing, I think are all acceptable, touching is maybe where it starts to get into a bit of 'no-go' area.

I agree with you fondant4000 - show & tell is normal and harmless; the problem I have with our situation is the age difference and the name of the game being mummies and babies, gives me the creeps! If it was mummies and daddies and the children were the same age I would not have turned a hair. It seems to be a fact that abused children pass it on, as they know no other way, and I don't want my little one to pass on any of this.

I am being cool about it outwardly, it's just inside I'm steaming a bit. I know it's important not to show ds any anxiety or over-reaction to his willy-bothering. (We aren't a prudish family, we slob about nudey in the mornings, the children share the shower with us/each other when they want.) I so hope that this is all normal developmental stuff, and that it has no connection to these past events. That is the line I'm going to take anyway, and see how things go.

Way to go, mrsbluesky.....like your gameplan. Good luck with the housework, far too hot here to do any

I remember when I was 4 I used to stay with my friend and her brother a lot (my mum worked nights) and we played a game - if you got a question wrong you had to show the others your bits- 2 wrong the others were allowed to touch. None of us were abused. I also remember playing similar games with my cousin.

My friend's dd (adopted) was sexually abused and her behaviour went way beyond anything this girl is showing (and was aimed at trying to get people to do things to her rather than the other way round).

I agree with peachyclair that its not really fair to say she's old enough to know better if she has an abusive background.

Mrsbluesky
I have a theory that might be wildly off the mark, but I wonder whether he was just doing what any normal 3-year-old boy does (thinking rude things are hilarious) but because of the past history here, he got a nice big reaction from the CM? She might have looked horrified or worried, which has prompted him, in that toddler way, to keep doing it. Just a thought. I really feel for you, because it is difficult and you have had a painful and worrying experience in the past. My instinct is not to make anything of it at all and let it pass. Otherwise he might feel guilty.

You know what jimjams I think you and peachyclair are right, and I am wrong. It isn't fair for me to say she should know better when she has such a terrible background. the problem is I was cross with her and don't feel reasonable when I think about her!

But I think my balance is restored now:)

Hey Mrsbluesky, I think you are doing all the right things. And I do think he'll forget all about it. I remember when I was about 5 my little best friend at school playing 'You show me yours and I'll show you mine' with one of the boys so I do agree with you about the showing bit being normal. It's the touching that's wrong.

You are a fab mother and shouldn't feel guilty. This could happen to anyone. The only way to be certain it doesn't is to watch your children almost psychotically all the time and if you did you would give them different emotional problems.

I have a good feeling that this will all turn out fine. Your son has the background to turn this into a non-problem.