Using negative reinforcement

[chicaguapa]

DD (4) is behaving really badly and the only advice I've been given is use positive reinforcement to encourage good behaviour. But she really really needs something to stop the bad stuff as she's a clever little monkey and knows how to work the reward/ sticker system by being good when she wants to.

We had fallen into the trap of thinking the opposite was punishment but according to the Operant Conditioning theories the opposite is in fact Negative Reinforcement.

From the internet: "Operant Conditioning is the term used by B.F. Skinner to describe the effects of the consequences of a particular behaviour on the future occurrence of that behaviour. There are four types of Operant Conditioning: Positive Reinforcement, Negative Reinforcement, Punishment, and Extinction. Both Positive and Negative Reinforcement strengthen behaviour while both Punishment and Extinction weaken behaviour.The concept of Negative Reinforcement is difficult to teach and learn because of the word negative.

Negative Reinforcement is often confused with Punishment. They are very different, however. Negative Reinforcement strengthens [good] behaviour because a negative condition is stopped or avoided as a consequence of the [good] behaviour.

Punishment, on the other hand, weakens a [good] behaviour because a negative condition is introduced or experienced as a consequence of the [good] behaviour."

I was wondering if any mums have any experience of using negative reinforcement to discourage bad behaviour?

didn't skinner do those experiments on rats?

I'm struggling to think how to apply this with children rather than animals..can you think of an example?

So, an extreme form of Negative Reinforcement would be..

'Do that again and you'll get a thick ear' ??

Don't really get it? We do the 'if you hit me one more time I'll take your trains off you' - but is that a punishment? Works a treat....

nope that's punishment
negative reinforcement would be punching the ear until they did as they were told then as soon as they did, removing the pinch...

negative reinforcement is when bad things STOP becuase you do something. Positive reinforcement is when good things START because you do something. Punishment is when bad things START becase you DON't do something...

Blimey. Think I prefer my method..

FB I'm with you.......

I think the stumbling block is inflicting the negative codition is counter intuitive when it is a small child

Think its potentially one step away from torture

chicaguapa did you add the [good] bits in your quote??? Because punishment does not weaken good behavior unless you are punishing good behavior...it weakens whatever behavior results in the punishment be it good, bad or indifferent..

can anyone think of an example where negative reinforcement could apply?

eg child persistently stands on the chair at the table instead of sitting nicely...negative reinforcement could be er what exactly .a chinese burn until they sit down?

Behaviourism as developed by Skinner should not be used in place of parenting. This is a form of training such as you would use to train a dog. Even discounting the dodgy morality of this attempt to control human behaviour, both rewards and punishments have been shown to weaken motivation, so that the person is much less likely to want to continue the desired behaviour when the rewards or punishments stop.

How about trying to show and encourage your children how to be reasonable people, by your own behaviour, instead of using ethically questionable methods of behavioural training on them?

sugarfree

didn't a show jumper get into trouble for training horses to pick their feet up by leaving sleepers or something hidden in the grass..I think that was negative reinforcement

Nope, ignoring until they are good is negative reinforcement! Hurrah! Then a bit of positive reinforcement by not only stopping ignorning them, but also giving praise....

any sort of behavioural conditioning needs to be consistent and appropriate ( if you use the same punishment for a minor problem as a major then it is demotivating...and can even lead to "sod it I'm going to get X for doing this anyway so I may as wll do this this and this as well...in for a penny in for a pound..."

there is a show jumping trick of raising the rails to rap the horse's shins as the horse jumps to make them pick their feet up.

Negative reinforcement is cruel, and a carrot is better than a stick anyway.

I think the positive thing to latch on to chica guapa is that your dd is capable of identifying good behaviour and earning the reward..

you can build on this by creating a positive and loving environment rather than trying to follow rather discredited training methods

my ds was incapable of recognizing that actions lead to consequences and so neither carrot nor stick worked with him as he just couldn't project himself forward

so when he took a phase of kicking me in the shin I had to find a way of keeping him out of the range of my shins, which is also I think negative reinforcement

Zippi - agree - the train thing only works with ds now he is a bit older - as a toddler he just wouldn't have got it - We have reached the stage where a look is usually sufficient....

Zippi I think your son was practising Skinnerian techniques on you.

When you did not respond in the appropriate manner by buying him a Playstation, he was forced to use the negative reinforcement of kicking you in the shins

probably lol..

he still doesn't understand actions lead to consequences unfortunately which makes life difficult, luckily he doesn't kick me any more! (he is 18)

I am only fully mastering the concept myself (am 34)

I shall have to get Foucault out I think