Using negative reinforcement

[chicaguapa]

DD (4) is behaving really badly and the only advice I've been given is use positive reinforcement to encourage good behaviour. But she really really needs something to stop the bad stuff as she's a clever little monkey and knows how to work the reward/ sticker system by being good when she wants to.

We had fallen into the trap of thinking the opposite was punishment but according to the Operant Conditioning theories the opposite is in fact Negative Reinforcement.

From the internet: "Operant Conditioning is the term used by B.F. Skinner to describe the effects of the consequences of a particular behaviour on the future occurrence of that behaviour. There are four types of Operant Conditioning: Positive Reinforcement, Negative Reinforcement, Punishment, and Extinction. Both Positive and Negative Reinforcement strengthen behaviour while both Punishment and Extinction weaken behaviour.The concept of Negative Reinforcement is difficult to teach and learn because of the word negative.

Negative Reinforcement is often confused with Punishment. They are very different, however. Negative Reinforcement strengthens [good] behaviour because a negative condition is stopped or avoided as a consequence of the [good] behaviour.

Punishment, on the other hand, weakens a [good] behaviour because a negative condition is introduced or experienced as a consequence of the [good] behaviour."

I was wondering if any mums have any experience of using negative reinforcement to discourage bad behaviour?

I'm rubbish with any form of behavioural training. Probably why my cat used to walk all over me!

I cannot help but feel that to do this positive/negative reinforcement/punishment/extinction/consistency business with children, you are disrespecting the innate ability of human beings (however small) to think for themselves. Modelling, or leading by example, does not promise short term results, but is the best long term strategy for raising well-behaved self-motivated children (assuming parents are, ahem, well-behaved themselves).

Hi, Maybe I've been misunderstood slightly. I'm not suggesting that dd suffers an electric shock until she behaves! What I was suggesting was that I introduce the "punishment" or withdrawal of priviledge immediately and put her in the position of stopping her bad behaviour in order to regain the priviledge.

We have been getting ourselves in the position of withdrawing a priviledge to encourage her to stop behaving badly and then it not being enough to motivate her to stop. So we have withdrawn it AND she's still behaving badly. So we have backed ourselves into a corner and then have to find something else.

I am completely understanding of the positive parenting approach and we do this consistently. However dd is extremely defiant and disobedient at times and something is needed to deal with that.

Eg at bedtimes she refuses to go to bed and stay there. So we spend over an hour doing the time out strategy of putting her back in her room avoiding eye contact and not talking to her. To her this is a game and a way of ensuring one of us stays upstairs with her until she has had enough. If you ask her why she does it, it's because she wants to be naughty. She gets a sticker on her pj's when we go to bed if she has gone to bed without a fuss. She likes this but there are some days when she decides she doesn't want a sticker.

We have also tried the gradual withdrawal method to remove the need for her to do something to get our attention and presence after she's gone to bed. When she stays in bed, one of us returns to give her a cuddle or say night night after 5 minutes, which increases by 1 minute each time as the night wears on and of course she mostly falls asleep at some point.

However there are nights when she just doesn't want to play ball and we are powerless to stop her behaviour.

A child psychologist friend told me once to confiscate her teddy and return it to her once she was in bed. (Rather than confiscate the teddy because she wouldn't get back in bed. Which leaves you down a dead end where we have found ourselves many times.) But she couldn't care less any more if you confiscate her teddy anyway.

Anyway I thought this might be a form of Negative Reinforcement. I can't ask the child psychologist anymore as she has breast cancer and, quite rightly, probably couldn't care less that dd is defiant!

I think your post is a perfect example of why behaviourism does not work on people. Giving stickers does not motivate your dd to go to bed. Being tired and / or wanting to do the right thing to please you, would, IMO. Sanctions and punishments and bribes and restrictions are doomed to chip away at your good relationship and teach your dd nothing about how to become a reasonable adult.

So what do you suggest then?

I would suggest looking more to your child as an individual - forget the internet research. Find something she really cares about; with the going to bed thing, something that often works is leaving the door open while the child is in bed, but when they come out you put them back in the room, and keep the door shut for 4 minutes. You then explain that it will stay open as long as she stays in bed, and repeat this until the child gets it. Maybe this would work for your DD.

You say she is defiant sometimes (as are all four year olds) but remember children are only oppositional and defiant when they have something to fight against. Using the bedtime example, she will fight if given an opportunity to, eg when you leave her in bed. A gentle approach would not allow any opposition to be shown, for example you could stay with her in her room while she drops off, but withdraw all positive attention...sit back, shut your eyes and give no attention at all. She has got nothing to complain about, you avoid confrontation, the house is peaceful.

I think it is all about negotiation. Four year olds are people with their own opinions and views, very strongly felt...this is why they can be defiant. It's about keeping calm, not angry, and negotiating your way round the situation. There is always something the child wants MORE than they want to be defiant, and it's usually good attention from their parents. This is why shutting the door at bedtime can work because it cuts out the 'game' element that can result from being returned to your room numerous times.

I think the main thing that might help is to remember that the result of her being defiant at bedtime must be that she gets LESS attention, not more....basically reducing her options.

This is a challenging situation. We tried that and she decided after a couple of days that she didn't mind the door being closed after all so we lost that 'tool'. When we confiscated her teddy she ended up just giving him to us when she went to bed, so we couldn't take it off her.

I have also tried the ignoring approach but she just climbs over me and then resorts to hitting me to get me to react. I appreciate that if she had nothing to fight against she wouldn't be defiant. But the alternative would be to just let her roam around the house at free will even though it's bed time.

Maybe we'll try holding the door closed again. We have done this before and she has thrown everything at it. Then she got hysterical and we weren't sure if we were doing the right thing. It seemed like locking her in the coal shed! But she did eventually get back into bed after A VERY LONG TIME! Although a friend suggested at that point we should have maybe praised her for finally getting into bed (which we hadn't done).

Maybe it's relevant, I don't know, but she's "gifted/savant" (as used by the education authority) so I don't know if more desperate measures are required in those circumstances.

I think you identified one problem when you said "We weren't sure we were doing the right thing"...(holding her door shut). This is the point at which strategies fail, when your uncertainty shows up! You are DH just need to agree a strategy, and stick to it. I know what you mean about it feeling like locking her in but I think if you decide on this strategy you have to not agonise about it. You are not locking her in, you are simply and clearly showing her what the options are at bedtime. If she stays in bed she has the door open, if she comes out it will be shut for four minutes. You are not holding it shut all night, just 4 minutes...she knows you are there and haven't abandoned her, but she also knows that her options at bedtime are that, or this...nothing else.

As you say, she threw things at the door and became hysterical - this is actually the strategy working. She of course uses all her repertoire to influence the situation! You just plough on like a parental steam train - "It's this, or this...." ad infinitum.....consistency will get you there, it really will.

She is obviously a clever girl (love the fact she handed you her teddy before going to bed!!!!) so I think if given the chance, she will think her way round things and I think maybe it's part of the reason she has so much resistance, and she is bright enough to sense that the more resistance she puts up the more likely you are to crumble or doubt your approach - But as parents you do hold the trump card, which is attention and the ability to negotiate. If she wants you there at bedtime, she must stay in bed. If she gets out, you will leave the room and shut the door, etc etc...make the choices simple and she has less room to mess around.

Why doesn't she want to go to bed? Is she not tired? Is she scared of being alone? Does she feel like she's missing out on what is going on downstairs?

I don't know exactly what I would do in your situation, partly because I don't know what has caused this problem to build up, but I think that the alternative you give, of her "roaming around the house at will" till she gets tired, sounds preferable, to me, to be honest, than holding the door of her room closed, confiscating her teddy, ignoring her and being hit by her. All of these activities are destined to erode the respect between you and your daughter.

I don't know what it is she wants, but if she is not tired and ready to go to bed, I would suggest some other activity she could do quietly by herself in her room perhaps until she feels tired. If she is especially intelligent I would imagine she will feel especially insulted by your behavioural training. Giving her more power over when and how she goes to bed could lead to more co-operation I would think. Let's face it, she is running you ragged at the moment from the sound of it, how much worse could it be?

yes Franny, I should have said that the holding the door shut approach is to try after all other avenues have been tried - I'm sort of assuming that the parents know she is tired and going to bed at the right time, and have tried allowing her to do quiet stuff on her own etc....I personally wouldn't say that her roaming the house till she feels tired is preferable to this appraoch actually, she may well not feel tired at all; and she needs to be told when bedtime is, she is only four and does not understand her developmental needs. I think a night or two of being shown very clearly what bedtime means, can't do her any harm whereas being allowed to be up till all hours actually could.

My personal approach is always the line of least resistance; me or DH stays in with our son till he drops off, so long as he stays in bed.....

chicaguapa, my sympathies. Clearly, your dd is very bright and determined young lady.

Could you postpone her bedtime by 30 mins/1 hour to ensure that she is more tired. Agree with sparklemagic to not give her anything to rebel against. If your dd wants you to stay up with her, perhaps you or dh could, after a cuddly bedtime story, say it is bedtime and lay in bed with her until she drops off - no interaction, door closed. And if she deliberately gets out of bed after the stated bedtime, even with you/dh are lying there, then still no interaction beyond asking her to come back into bed as it is "bedtime". Don't let her get out of the room and ideally no toys. Hopefully, she will be bored back into bed.

Ultimately, your dd wants to please you. To ensure a good relationship with your dd, lots of attention at other times, but try not to relate it to whether dd has been good or not. The danger with your dd being so intelligent is that she will feel manipulated into being good if you make your "love" conditional upon good behaviour. Just enjoy her and all phases will come to pass eventually.

Hi, Just a few comments. She is usually ok about going to bed, will happily read a book or two quietly etc. So we don't feel there is a sinister reason for her not wanting to stay in bed. We are realistic about our expectations and simply want her to stay in her bedroom instead of running around the house and doing the opposite. We have often gone to bed ourselves with her still awake reading. I did this myself as a child and am fairly relaxed about it. We have strong guidelines and boundaries but allow her an element of freedom within them. This we hope reduces the need to defy us and battle for control.

However, she sometimes resists staying in her room and actually says it's because she wants to be naughty! She has stacks of positive attention from us and I wonder sometimes if she just wants some negative attention?

I read this comment "The danger with your dd being so intelligent is that she will feel manipulated into being good if you make your "love" conditional upon good behaviour." and something struck a cord. She knows that our love is unconditional. But if you substituted the word "love" with "attention" I think you might have something there.

We are doomed . Is it possible for a child to defy the benefits of positive reinforcement/ parenting?

aviatrix - does that mean you don't subscribe to positive parenting either?

I am in an interesting situation in that my dad brought me and my siblings up in the "old-fashioned" way of being obedient and getting a smack when I wasn't. But I also have a 14 year-old brother who is being brought up by my dad with positive parenting. So he has experienced 2 ways of bringing up children. He says with the information he now has, he feels happier and more reasonable bringing my brother up. But that said, I turned out ok. But that's a whole new thread which has probably been done to death anyway.

Come onto the SN board and ask the question there. There are a number of people using ABA who will be able to explain it to you. Aversives (punishment) is not used now-I am no ABA expert but we do use a behavioural approach with ds1 - (severely autistic with challenging behaviours). we tend to use positive reinforcement and extinction. I spend a lot of time avoiding reinforcing unwanted activities.

Another method I have found useful is to use the ABC approach.
A is the antecedent- what triggers a behaviour, why is it being done
B is the behaviour (eg pinching me, pulling trousers down in public being the new one this week)
C is the consequences- and this is where the reinforcement comes in. If I shout at ds1 he finds it an interesting response and I have just reinforced the behaviour. IN fact its a common response in our house. Ds1 does something, one of us shrieks or yells and the spouse shouts "FGS will you stop reinforcing his behaviour, nice one).

We had bet time problems for a while so we fixed it so he can't get out of the room at bed time (2 travle barriers fixed to the wall one on top of the other and too tight for him to unscrew- he's 7). We then had problems with lights being flicked on and off so we removed the lightbulb from the room. If behaviour is repetitive as you describe- we have found the best approach is to prevent the behaviour occuring in the first place.

chicaguapa, you said "However, she sometimes resists staying in her room and actually says it's because she wants to be naughty! She has stacks of positive attention from us and I wonder sometimes if she just wants some negative attention?"

I know what you mean. I don't think your dd is too impressed with stickers or rewards and my opinion is that negative reinforcement could backfire. When my dd is in the mood, she will happily ask for a sticker, but other times, she is fixed on what she wants (yes, "naughty" and she knows it) and won't budge for all the chocolate in the world. It sounds like your dd's behaviour sometimes just needs to "test the limits" - it is very normal and a sign of, erm, creativity?

It is so exasperating when my dd agrees that she is being naughty with a cheeky grin on her face!

A little humour/tickling, whilst holding firm to your limits, helps. I always offer a little compromise eg for bedtime, offer to just lie with her but don't let her leave the room. And I just repeat periodically (hopefully without raising my voice too much) that it is bedtime. But I try not to threaten to take things away or other "negative" consequences. Your dd will soon learn that it is no fun to push this limit - well, at least for the next week or so, lol

what jimjams says about not letting the behaviour occur in the first place is what I was trying to say about my ds, as he didn't respond to the reward system as such.

If you take the refusal to go to bed quietly situation then clearly she does have to go to bed. It has become a battleground which she is revelling in.

I would try to concentrate on this behaviour at the moment as if you have battles on multiple fronts then you will really struggle and be exhausted.

My ideas you could try

1. Get her up a bit earlier (15-25 mins). Wake her up.

1. Have your evening meal at the same time everyday.

1. Have a routine for the evening. Stick to the same bedtime. Get her to recognize the time on a clock. Lead up to that time with a similar series of events each day.

1. Is she afraid of the dark or being alone. If she is imaginative then the quiet of her room may be inhabited with monsters of her own making. Talk to her to reassure her, help her make up her own special story which she can think about as she is falling asleep. Let her see the landing light.

1. Now it is bedtime, don't enter into an argument about it. It is an immoveable fact.

1. Make the bedtime story special. Show that you enjoy it and look forward to it. If she has been good tell her.

1. When you leave her in bed say that because she has been good it means you can do some jobs around the house and there will be more time for her tomorrow.

1. Make sure her room isn't too warm.

1. As long as she stays in bed don't worry whether she goes to sleep.

10. Because bedtime has been a battle and she has had attention from you at that time by behaving badly she has to learn that you won't pay her attention for her bad behaviour. You have to fail to respond to her calling and running around. It requires lots of patience to do this as it may take 5 to 10 days of failing to pay her attention before she gives up.