So upset with my childrne's behaviour tonight - please help - parenting gurus especially welcome and needed

[lisalisa]

I am very upset and sad ( as well as uptight and angry) tonight. I hope someone who has either been through this or who can advise is able to help and calm me down and defuse my tension.

I have a large family - 5 children aged between 6 months and 9.5 years. My children have always helped in the house and been well behaved - my 9 year old has always tended towards surly and lippy but generally well behaved. My 7 year old and 5 year old are sweet and loving children who generally thrive on being good. Gradually though this has all started to change and the childrne have become ruder andn ruder and more badly behaved. Exa,ples would be not sitting at the dinner table and bringing toys ( ie books or pens ) to the table and not listening when I insist they eat and not play or going to the loo 3 times throughout dinner and generally being disruptive.

Othyer examples would be taking food not allowed ie sweets ( they not its not allowed on weekdays and sneak it away).

Things came to a head tonight though when i left the house for 2 hours to take my 7 year old to a tutor . When I got back the entire kitchen floor was covered in paper, pens and mess - and I mean covered to the extent that you couldn't see the floor underneath. The kids were still in School unifrom despite me leaving instructison that they were to have a wash and get in pjs. The worst was though that my helper was in tears at the sink. I asked her what was wrong ( apart froom the mess!) and she relayed an awful catalogue of rudeness from the childrne. My 5 y old told her to shut up (!), my 7 year old screamed during the one hour after he returned from the tutor whilst I was still out despite her repeated pleas for him to be quiet as baby was sleepoing and my 9.5 year old refused to help as requestedc. For eg my helper asked her to please fetch a nappy or bring a dummmy for baby and she point blank refused saying "why should I help you" to which all the other kids roared with laughter. They were extremly rude and disrespectful and I became white wiht angeer.

Even whjilst I was telling them off my 9.5 year old was smirking and 5 year old seemed oblivious. I have meted out suitable punishments - no friends to stay over weekend, no football and no treats over weekend but have feeling it won't sink in and work as I sent them all to bed and even whilst I'm typoing they'are all giggling.

How can I regain control of my famly and install some respect for authority ( mine and outsiders ) in my kids?

I hope someone comes along with constructive advice, all I can say is that my heart goes out to you....

LisaLisa - I can be of not practical help at all, but do want to sympathise.

It sounds as if they are discovering their power as a mob. More individual activities? Divide and rule?

Actually, I think you should have a big glass of wine before you do another thing.

Is the helper up to it? They will quickly spot a weak link and take full advantage.

Go away on holiday without them for a week, regain your strength, make them miss you and come back like a hurricane of disciplne and with a whstlle like Captain Vonn Trapp?

Thank you handlemecarefully - nice to receive messages of support too.

I have to return to work in 4 weeks too so am desparate to do something about their behaviour as don't want this kind of lark with a nanny on board who clearly won't stay very long....

Is there anything new in their routine that could be the cause of this? Have they been through any kind of disruption?

I think you need to sit them all down and lay down some ground rules. You also lay out punishments that you must stick to no matter what. In return for their good behaviour you must also be prepared to treat them. Give them all your undivided attention for at least half an hour each day. I know that's not easy with 5 kiddies, but you could play in the bath with the 2 youngest and read books with the 3 eldest or something like that. Take time out to be with them at the weekends and try to do something as a family at least once a week, even if it's just a picnic in the backgarden.

When children misbehave like this there is usually an underlying cause. Talk to them and try to find out what this is. What would they like from you? Then tell them what you would like from them. But be firm too, if they break the rules they must be punished.

Blu - had to laugh about the whistle - I did spot one lying in the playroom en route to discover the kitchen mess and thought very seiously about blowing it loudly.

Mob rule - hmm - makes sense actually as I do think they feed off and get "power" and "guts" from eachother. How to separate though? We all live in one house.

How many hours do you work? How often do you see them or get to spend any quality time with them?

5 children with just one parent is hard work for them as well as you. Perhaps they each feel that they are not getting the attention they would like? I was one of 6 and I know that I often felt left out.

I do sympathise, there can be no easy answers.

Has the nanny started? (Climb Every Mountain...)

Are they anxious about you returning to work, and playing up to try and make you have to stay??

Rhubarb - you're right of course - there is an underlying reason. Dh and I have been havingt problems and the kids have seen probably more than we'd liked. This is probably the result although I can't say definitively as our problems began about when baby was born ( 6 months ago) and the rudeness and cheekiness did begin before then.

I've tried incentives and have been doing them for good behaviour for years i.e. 20 stars ( for things like taking dishes to sink, making beds and being kind to siblings) earns a small pressie ( say £2 value). They resonded well to this although I think this has lost its value.

I will stick to the punshiments although I don't presonally think that this will change anything i.e. influnece things for the better.

The kids do need more individual attention - 9 year old usually gets it as she's up latest but 7 and 5 year old don't. Baby and 2 year old ( who's also being disruptive and "naught" for want of a better word) have time with me as I'm home with them all day and do at least one concentrated activity wiht them per day.

I think for rewards then they would probably just like more time with you or their dad! How much input does he have?

Sit them down and talk to them, ask them if anything is bugging them, are they worried about you and their dad? What changes would they like to happen? If you encourage communication now, at a young age, you'll have less problems in the future. Make sure they know that they can come to you with anything that is troubling them, no matter what it is. They may be withholding things from you for fear of hurting you, they might be afraid to talk about their dad for instance, or to ask questions.

Sorry if this is being too personal btw.

yes divide them up into smaller groups. worked wonders for me - 5 kids too!!! get the older ones to do colouring or suchlike with the younger ones for a short while during stressful times like making dinner. split them into two's (keep baby with you) with a particular activity. be firm, mean what you say.

have fun with them too. when it all gets too much, get a ball and walk down to the park. on the way keep them occupied by saying who can skip, who can hop, etc, etc...

Tell them these are the rules - ie at dinner table - tell them consequences (little ones), stick to them, calmly carry them through if they trangress.

it's tough, impossible at times, don't try to be the perfect parent, none of us get it right all the time.

Sorry to hear you're having some problems. You haven't been around on MN much recently, have you? I had wondered where you were a couple of times.

I usually think that when kids play up because their world is shifting a bit, it's even more important to shore up the boundaries, even though you might feel like indulging them a bit. The boundaries give security and normality, even as circumstances change. Can dh co-operate and put up a strong untied front to be firm but attentive with them in the run up to you returning to work?

'united', not 'untied'!!

Lisa - I feel so sad for you - to be having issues in your relationship and have to deal with the children being difficult too - in your shoes I think I would just want to runaway from it all:(

I'm not sure if there is really any merit in what I'm about to say, but it is a possible!

I recently went through a difficult spell with bad behaviour, rudeness and inappropriate language (stupid, idiot etc). The children were telling me that they didn;t like their nanny and you know, I really wasn;t listening hard enough to what they were telling me! Their behaviour was getting worse and worse and I was greeted every night on my return from work with a catalogue of sins they had committed from their nanny!

I changed the nanny and I cannot believe the change in their behaviour - it is a joy to come home from work - they are always playing happily with the nanny, have built dens together, been kind and loving to each other and are back to being the children I know and love:)

Is it possible that the problem is with the nanny rather than with you and DH? Might they really be trying to tell you something?

In any event, I hope you find an answer soon, as this must be soul destroying! Good luck:)

Rhubabr - I don't work at the moment - been off since last August. If I may ask how did you feel left out? Blu, nanny hasn't started yet - thank goodness! My helper works 6 hours per day helping me .

Hi Lisalisa, poor you, blimey, sounds tough, five children must be v hard work (and lovely too I'm sure!).

Well, my 8.5yo had an extremely horrible patch recently and I was at the end of my tether so I can tell you what worked for us. It was a combination of a set of house rules and a star chart. The rules are things like 'use a normal voice' so that covers no whingeing/rudeness/shouting, and 'violence is unacceptable' to cover hitting/pushing etc. The rules apply to all of us and there are only about 5 of them. They're typed up and stuck on the fridge.

The star chart is a home typed one with 3 possible stars to earn every day: morning, afternoon and evening. After a certain number of stars there's a treat, like being able to stay up to watch the football last night or getting some PS2, something like that. My son's behaviour has been utterly transformed, I have to say. The stickers are small ones from Woolworths and say 'fantastic' 'well done' and similar things. The chart is also stuck on the fridge and ds looks at it every day and counts his stickers. I had thought we were way beyond star charts at his age but seemingly not!

Might your children compete with each other if they had charts? The only downside for us so far (we're on week 3 atm) has been ds going mad if he doesn't get a sticker - the rule is he gets a warning that he's about to lose his sticker and if he persists he doesn't get the sticker. We've had rage twice because he didn't get it but we've been consistent and if he loses it, that's it.

Anyway, that's what's been working for us recently, good luck whatever you try.

Oh just skimmed over the thread and see that you've tried stars, ignore me then!

Thanks for all the replies - would like to pick up on the following:

Dh and I do co-operate althgouh the children have seen terible instances where he and I have argued and said " right, well, next time you ask the children to do such and such I;lll tell them to do opposite". These instances have been few and far between although the bad atmosphere and rows unfortunately haven't. Generally we back eachother up even where we disagree.

Will take up Rhubarb's suggestion of asking them if anything is buggin them etc and having an open forum with them. I could tack onto end of this a firm statement that whilst I'm happy to talk to them about what bothers them bad behaviour is absolutely not acceptable.

Interested in QE's suggestion of splitting into groups- sounds difficult to do though. I know children would like more time with me individually although I can't find more time - I'm at breakng point anyway - think I'm suffering a bit from pnd and desparate for some"me" time - truth be told I don't want to spend any more time with the kids and once they're in bed heave a sigh of relief. Bedtimes used to be cosy book reading affairs - now I stgrugge to do this even with help. Its just so hard trying to read 4 bedtime stories and listen to 4 chiildrne and deal with 4 lots of drinks etc.... Feeling swamped

No WWW - that's very ehlpful. Althoguh we do stars they've kind of lost their excitement as I kept forgetting _ post baby memory- who had how many stars and suspect oldest dd of cheating in " remembeing " hers, I also like your idea of house rules and typing them up. Very interesting. Will try that too - your examples of no violence and using normal voices are spot on too.

I'm not at all surprised that you need a break from them. Actually, in soome ways, might retturning to work at least give you a break from being grabbed by stickky fingers? Are you going back to work f/t? Any chance at all that nanny, helper and dh could cover a Fri eve until Sat eve, and you go and stay with a childless friend, sometime soon?

Making a competetion betwen the older ones to get most stars might work - or even put them into teams (like a mini 'house system') to compete so that they have to gang up to be good, rather than gang up to be disruptive. They could be in different teams each week.

But I should warn you, LisaLisa, the ONLY thing i hasve said on this thread that i have any experience of is pouring the big glass of wine. I have one child and feel downright faint at the thought of getting more than that dressed. Never mind brought up.

hello lisalisa - sounds like you're having a really hard time, and I know from experience (even with just 2) that that particular kind of disrespectful, laughing at you behaviour is teh worst. It really upsets me and gets me angry, so lots of sympathy. The only thing advice-wise that struck me was what you said about bed-time - you said you try to do 4 stories. Sounds like a trivial change but I wonder if it's time to tell them they only have stories every other night, but, when they do, they get a bit longer and time for a special 1-1 chat. I wonder if that every other night would be better than a rushed story every night iyswim.

What about having one story to all at same time? you could sometimes do older stories & sometimes younger ones. Or whilst reading to the youngest children, the oldies could be silent reading to themselves but still all sat together in a big night time snuggle? Might give yoou a bit more time & make the night time routine less of a struggle.
Behaviour wise, I use a technique with the children I teach & it works from 4 - 11yrs (so far!) It might work in the home & is easier to police than stars.

Get the children to decide on a whole family treat & write it down & pin it on the fridge so they can see what they are working towards. Get an empty jar & every time the children behave well or comply with whatever rule you have set they get one or more marbles put in the jar. When jar is full, they get the treat.
Remember:-
marbles can't be removed from jar, they have been earned & are deserved.
YOU decide when & how many get put in, NO arguments.
They all get the treat even when they haven't contributed. (doesn't sound fair but it does work)
Because the reward is for all of them, they (hopefully) will try & encourage each other to behave ( no more giggling at each others bad behaviour) & will not appreciate siblings bad behaviour.
It focuses on good behaviour & helps remind them that it is worth doing what mum & dad want.
If marble jar isn't suitable, any kind of chart will do.
I haven't actually tried this at home but it really does work even in small groups in school. Let me know if you try it!

I like taht idea AnnElizabeth, I do seperate jars for my two and it's ok but can cause howls of anguish when one has earned a treat and the other not. I like the idea of them having a vested interest in the other one behaving well.

I just wanted to add a message of support, lisalisa. I don't have any experience of large families or even groups of children. My two sons (12 and 6) can wind each other up no end and I am always separating them at the moment. If I had three more like them I would be tearing my hair out (while obviously loving them all to bits).

I hit a bad patch about 3 months ago - I just kept getting tense and shouty and I could not find my equlibrium with them and they knew it and played on it. Then I had some time away from them - just a couple of evenings and one or two day trips here and there. I also got to go away with my dh for a weekend alone for the first time in 12 years (for practical reasons, but it still was a break). Just having time to myself worked wonders for me - I realised from a distance how near the end of my tether I had got without noticing it. When I had regained my strength I could cope better and my sons were just a little bit less awful together - they became just the right side of manageable again. So if you can take some breaks away from your children, I'd really recommend it - if only to evaluate what to do next to get them back to their old selves.