School have called me in to talk about DS, 4yo :(

[wheelsfelloff]

Am a regular but have name-changed for this. I'm sitting here in tears and shaky, I don't know what to do.

DS is in Reception and is one of the youngest, a last days of August baby (which may, or may not, be relevant). Since he started in September, he is always in trouble and this was also the case when he was in a (private) nursery for mornings for the previous six months. We are talking general not listening, fidgeting, being silly etc. as well as some spitting and the odd bout of hitting and kicking, although my understanding is that there is less of this now. I realise that none of these things are acceptable and I can understand how irritating it must be for the teachers.

He has always been pretty feisty but we have always had boundaries and taught him right from wrong. I'm sure everyone thinks 'it's the parents' fault' but we really have always tried to be consistent. Both DP and I are pretty meek and mild, we don't fight, we never hit each other or the DCs or condone such behaviour in any way. We have seen DS's behaviour improve immensely at home as he has got older and tbh we don't have many problems with him, above and beyond the usual 4 year old stuff. If I take him on playdates or to parties, he behaves well. He can be so lovely, is a nice older brother and is doing well learning-wise at school. But something about school environments seems to drive him a bit bonkers.

At the first parent's evening before Christmas, his teacher told me he was naughty but 'I don't think he's on some spectrum, if that's what you're thinking'. We agreed to a sticker chart which I did for a couple of months but tbh it didn't really feel like it was helping him stop what is essentially impulsive behaviour and also for it to work relied on the teacher reporting back to me every day which didn't always happen or I didn't really know enough about why it was 'not a good day' in order to explain to DS why he wasn't getting a sticker. So it fizzled out.

Yesterday was the first day back after half-term. He was in trouble yesterday for throwing people's things. Today was worse (some spitting and DS said they put him in the nursery) and his teacher has asked me to go in on Thursday to 'talk about how we can support him in school'. I don't know what to think, I don't know what to do. I feel like such a crap parent for this to be happening but I just don't know what else to do when I don't really have major problems with him elsewhere. He does go through phases of being particularly bonkers (including the last couple of weeks) after long periods of relative calm; we have looked at food, sleep etc. but there seems to be no obvious cause.

Sorry for the essay and the ranting. I just wondered if anyone had any words of wisdom. I just know I'm going to go in on Thursday and blub, although I really don't want to . I want to work with the teachers and I also don't want my DS to be 'crying and bored' in the nursery every day .

I'm another that was going to suggest anxiety. My DD can be like this- yes she loves school, but her behaviour is off the wall when it's time to go back after a holiday, or in the run-up to Christmas, birthday etc, it's all about anxiety.

Keep him hydrated- mine are always thirsty when they come out of school, and I find thirstiness (even though neither could express it at 4yo) made them rude, cranky, and poorly behaved. I also think there is a difference when they've had vitamins with omega oils in (but that could just be a placebo effect!).

Remember- he's only 4. It is very difficult for 4yos (even the particularly composed ones) to control their impulses. My DD has improved with age, we have longer periods of good behaviur between flashpoints now.

I hope Thursday can be a chance for you and school to find a way forward that meets his needs.

Hand in Hand Parenting has some great ideas for how to deal with behavioural issues. Do you think he may be missing you a bit and acting up because of that, particularly as he's so young?

One idea Hand in Hand has is doing special one-one time with your child, and how this can help you feel closely bonded with them. It's great to do before a seperation. The suggestions in this article might help. Start School Days with Special time

I'm just wondering why no one suggests keeping him back a year.

My DS was put back a year at 14 when we moved from England to Scotland (due to GCSE/standard grade not starting at quite the same age) and he absolutely thrived (and got in all the sports teams cos he was one of the bigger ones).

Well in England that's very rare Cressida. English schools just won't do it unless there are SEN diagnosed.

It's virtually impossible in England. Also, if OP's DS was similar in nursery, it will just be deferring the issue.

I don't want the 'naughty' label to follow him through school and life.

Didn't happen like that, ime. I wouldn't worry about that at all. DS was a PITA in school, especially from reception-y2. Quiet spells and then he acts up again in dramatic violent ways. School expressed shock at his latest bouts of bad behaviour (now in yr4), because he hasn't had any major issues since start of y2; "We had assumed he finally matured and settled down" they declared (having previously been "high profile").

I suppose it is possible that he has a terrible reputation with the children and other parents. How would I know?

Um, sorry to be bucking the trend here, but is there definitely a real problem with your DS? I wonder if it's a lot to do with him being so young for his year and being a naturally 'feisty' boy? The way he's described as having sudden 'outbursts' makes me think of testosterone surges and lots of energy. My DS (age 6) is one of the oldest in his year. He's clever, funny, kind and very energetic! At his last parents evening, his very nice, very experienced teacher (she's head of infants) said that he tries so hard to be good and obey the rules bit now and again he just "explodes" and goes a bit crazy. She said that in her experience this was very common in boys and she was not concerned whatsoever but obviously wanted us to be aware. Also, is he being provoked by other children and reacting? DS1's 'best mate' is very aware of how to press his buttons and wind him up. Your DS is only 4. If he'd been born slightly later then he'd still be at home with you. I'm not saying that his behaviour doesn't need to be monitored; I just think there may well be some perfectly reasonable explanations that aren't related to SEN etc. That said, my only qualification is this area is having 3 boys myself, I'm not a teacher or anything like that! One thing that helped DS1 though was fish oils. We give him Eskimo Kids which contains very pure omega 3, 6 and 9. Good luck and please please don't despair!

xgris you're not "bucking the trend" I believe most people on the thread told the OP that her DS sounds simply "young" for his year and naturally energetic.

Thank you all for the suggestions. There was no screen time this morning (harder for us than him I think!) He already has vits with Omega 3 but I think they are pretty weak so will look into some of the brands suggested. And see if I can get him into bed earlier. He was being so good this morning - younger brother had thrown up everywhere and he took it upon himself to help me get breakfast ready etc. and got ready with no fuss.

I spoke to his teacher about when exactly we were meeting and also asked who I was meeting with. She said herself and another lady, who I have found out is the Early Interventions Lead Teacher. She stressed that I didn't need to worry about anything but of course my mind is racing and I keep crying. Know that I need to man up before tomorrow to get the best out of the meeting.

Wheels don't worry. My DD had some bother in reception and her teacher showed me a big pile of files which were all the children who were having extra help...and it was massive! So many dc need intervention that you really shouldn't stress...it's help for ds...to get him to where he needs to be.x

DD had an IEP for several years due to her mild dyslexia and therefore perceived problems with reading. However I like to think of it more that her reading progress followed more of an individual learning projectory - or put it another way, she did it in her own time !
Once she discovered first Lauren Child and then Lemony Snicket she was away !
So, basically you could look on an IEP (individual educational plan) as a good thing. In an ideal world every child would be considered as an individual at school and their own strengths and weaknesses addressed to see how best to help them take those next steps on their learning and development journeys
(excuse the jargon ! )
DD is now in year 9 and an ardent reader who is now enjoying teasing out the subtleties within "Much Ado About Nothing", and considering English Literature for A level or beyond !
Needing some specific help along the way doesn't have to be a problem

It IS a good thing. It's an individually drawn up plan to help DC make it. Rather like the way my Dad couldn't get a suit off the peg as he was massively tall and slim...he had tailor made suits. They looked better and didn't show his ankles.

It's so worrying when we are made to think our DC may be struggling at something...we all want them to do well in all things and to have an easy path...but hardly ANY DC have a bump free education or social life.

They all have some things..some areas, where they need a hand. It's ok OP...try not to worry and remember your DS is not the only child in his class who will be getting help.

Wheels, my son is having help with his behaviour. It is very low key and the other children don't notice. He also has some sessions with the eyfs special needs ta, working on social skills. In practise, 3/4 go out of the classroom each day to play somewhere else, always including him. They all enjoy it and benefit from it. Academically, he is doing really well.

How do I know all this is true? I am a governor so in school a lot. I see and know about lots of interventions like this.

They are a positive thing to help your child to do his best.

Good luck tomorrow

I feel for you wheelsfelloff, having been through the same with our youngest son. He is also an august baby, and he went to a private nursery 3 days a week whilst I was at work. he was always hard work but issues were never raised by the staff. My DH and I had some concerns but he started nursery at school a few weeks after turning 3, and after about 6 weeks the nursery teacher asked if she could 'have a word'. She had concerns about him being in 'his own little world' and I knew she was implying SEN/ASD. My world fell apart and I cried, a lot. To every health professional for about 2 yrs and every day at home. I started a thread about it on the SN childrens boards at the time, that you may want to look up. Fast forward 2.5 yrs and DS does have a diagnosis of ASD, he is mainstream school with full support and a statement and is making great progress. Its been a tough ride though.
Make a list of questions before you go in;
What strategies are they going to put in place for your DS?
When will they review these? (I would suggest before easter-dont leave it long, and have another meeting)
Who are they going to refer to and for what reason
Do they want you to make any referrals, e.g. to GP etc.

Dont worry about crying, you will be great, if you cry or not. You are the best advocate for your child and you know him best. Best of luck, and come over to the SN children boards if you feel you need to. Lots of fantastic advice and hand holding on there.

You've had some brilliant advice already and don't want to repeat it although was nodding vigorously to lots of posts!

One other thought (kind of already mentioned) is are there any friendship issues? Ds2 is bright and capable and mainly v mature but on and off we've had issues with his behaviour. It's a mix of being drawn to silliness/ naughtiness, showing off, sometimes a lack of self-esteem (although he's bright he's also the youngest in his class and v v conscious that there are other older children who can do more than him) and recently there's been a problem with another child being mean to him which has manifested itself in ds behaving badly.

Please do remember the school is trying to help and that is a good thing. I would try and get them to be v specific about what the issue is though - it's pretty normal for 4 yo boys to be fidgety and struggle to concentrate I think you need more details.

I symphatize. My DS1 is almost 5yo, in Reception, and has had issues since early age. I used to think that it is my fault, that I don't have enough of patience for him, guilty for not enjoying motherhood, but after having DS2, I realized the difference between them: DS2 is just normal, easy going child with minimum effort, DS1 at older age still takes our 80% of attention and is such a handful. My DS1 sound similar to yours. He can be lovely and sweet, but more so he is grumpy, negative attitude, terribly silly, impulsive, cross, not interested in learning this, fidgety. He has grown out of the hitting/biting stage, but can push or poke other when cross. He does not engage in charts. The school has established carpet spots and stickers for rewarding behaviour, and he just comes home and says "today I was on a grey spot because I was cross" or "today I was on the blue spot because I was angry" or something along those lines. The fact is the he just does not care. Or if we try to learn reading, writing, cycling, I get so much attitude from him ("why..[silly questions]", "no I will do my way", "I don't want to do it") that any learning stops after 5 minutes and drives me to nuts.

I used to look for reasons, like perhaps he is tired, hungry etc, but when it is so different with DS2, I stopped looking for reasons and realised DS1 is just different.

DS1 is also awkward in communication, he often talks no sense, it looks like he just likes being silly, presenting himself silly, even though we try not to pay attention, and it gets to the point we think what is wrong with his head!!! Then he starts being serious and the common sense is back.

I also notice that DS1 does not like team games like football, e.g. just runs opposite direction, again he understands instructions but often decides doing opposite. Other kids of his age are defo more mature.

I could seek for diagnosis but whatever it is, it is mild, and the school only said "he has his moments" but has not raised any specific concerns, so the diagnosis is not on my agenda. However, it makes our life very full on, and often, miserable...

I don't have any words of wisdom as we were in a simillar situation up until a couple of weeks ago. My DS is also 4.5, also born second half of August, in fact you could be describing my DS - fidgeting, not listening, not doing what he is told according to his teacher, but lovely and caring at home or with other kids.

Almost every single day he would come back from school telling us he went on the "sad face" yet again. The teacher felt she had to talk to my DP and pulled him aside to list all the problems she was having with DS - very young for his age, lack of concentration etc etc

Two weeks ago this teacher went on maternity leave and you would not believe the difference. Now he comes home with stickers and certificates praising him for phonics, saying thank you for being a little helper. He could not be happier.

What the other teacher saw as being naughty, the new one sees as being creative. She seems to accept that he IS young and encourages him, rather than punish all the time.

Please talk to the teaching assistants or maybe ask the other parents as to how their children are getting on. You know your child and I do not believe that a child can be well behave at home/outside/with other people, but turn into a "monster" at school.

Also meant to say, as others have done so, different teachers do make such a difference to our DC, and he may respond much better to a different approach than the one the school are currently following. Also, ask about the point about him being put into nursery. I really hope this was not as 'time out', as this is extremely poor practice and you must stick to your guns and inform them that you find this unacceptable and will not tolerate it again.

I also agree that the teacher labeling a child "naughty" is very wrong.

I am at not being able to keep children back a year in England.

My DD's best pal was kept back from starting school by her DM who is a teacher so poor DD had to start school in a class nearly all boys (v small school) - it seems such a sensible thing to do.

Some really good advice here and lots for you to think about, OP.

I just wanted to add one more thing for you to consider which I haven't seen on scanning through responses.

Sensory processing difficulties can cause anxiety, fiddling, impulsiveness and ultimately enough stress to trigger unacceptable behaviour.

talks a little about proprioceptive issues causing the need to move and fiddle. There are also children who find smells, lights, colours, touch and noise overwhelming all of which are rather in your face in a busy classroom.

It is worth looking at and, if you think it may be an issue for your son, suggesting a sensory audit of his environment as a way to help reduce the triggers for him.

Thanks again, everyone, and especially other parents and teachers for sharing your experiences. You are so kind and helpful. I started the day in tears but feel much more confident now.

DS had a good day and lots of stickers today and I took him to the park after school with some of his friends; he was so lovely and offered to share his scooter and snacks with the others. Whatever the issues are/n't he is still my lovely little boy. I was also touched by a couple of mums at the schoolgate who I don't really know but asked if everything was okay as they had seen how stressed/sad I looked last night and this morning. They aren't friends but the teacher is never subtle with her feedback so they know he can be a handful in class They took the time to tell me that he's a nice boy and only young, bless them

Right, off to write my list of questions now and practice not crying some chance.

I wish you all the best for the morning wheels- the power of MN is behind you

Good luck tomorrow Wheels. Your DS sounds lovely.

ps. I hope you aren't clearing up vomit again tomorrow though!

Best of luck Wheels! You and your DS sound just lovely. Please let us know how you get on