Lost our way with 5yo ds

[MummyPig24]

Dp and I are at a loss as what to do. Our once respectful and well behaved ds has turned into a rude and belligerent child.

He seems incapable of listening, behaves in a hyperactive way, constantly annoying his sister, shouting and running everywhere. Then when he is challenged about his behaviour he calls us names like "idiot."

He loves school and is generally well behaved there. He does football club which he loves and does very well. Dp and I love him very much and praise him for every little thing he does well. But I just feel like we are failing at the moment. Why can he not listen and follow instructions like he used to? Why won't he hold our hands when we are out like he used to? Why does he think its funny to be disrespectful and to be mean to his little sister? Please help us get back on track and enjoy life with him again, because at the moment it seems like a constant battle.

I'm afraid I have no answers, just sympathy. He sounds very much like my five year old and its very difficult to handle. My DS is also prone to massive fits of sobbing and also fighting with his sister, and the latter is the most difficult to handle.

I think there is an element of it being a stage. In our case his sister is his twin and she does show the backchat type behaviour but it much more capable of controlling herself. She's generally more mature manipulative. DS knows there are immediate negative consequences but he often can't stop himself. We've been trying to keep firm and keep going and he does seem to be slowly improving, they're nearly 6. One thing that does seem to help is nipping it right in the bud, straight off to his room the second the attitude starts and separating the two of them. We've got a definite element of reinforcement going on with our two and at school they mix with a lot of older children, so mimic them a lot.

Hopefully some wise person will have some advice for us .

He is well behaved at school because he understands the boundaries - he doesn't call the teacher an idiot because he knows he can't. You have to be much tougher- you do not let him call you names- you come down on him like a ton of bricks and don't take it. You wouldn't take it from a shop assistant, your next door neighbour etc and yet you are taking it from a 5 year old. Imagine what he will call you at 13yrs if he thinks he can!
Stop praising him for every little thing - make sure it is merited. When he won't hold you hand you grab it and tell him that he is holding your hand, whether he likes it or not!
If he is running everywhere , pick him up and hold him tightly, tell him that he will get down when he stops and not until.
When you give an instruction get down to his level, look him in the eye and make him repeat it back to you.
Give him lots of exercise and exhaust him- run him around the park - take him out on his bike.
If he won't listen tell him that you will not take him to football club.
He thinks it funny to be disrespectful and mean to his sister because he can, he isn't stopped. He wouldn't be disrespectful to the teacher and mean to the other children because there would be hell to pay and he knows it! You are the parent, not the best friend, you are being too nice and he is taking full advantage.

You are right chutneypig- nip it in the bud- much easier to stop the first time and far more difficult once they have got away with it a few times.

Oh you poor things.

I'm really sorry you're going through this.

Can you think of anything that might have caused the change - I'm sure you're racking your brains already - but all I can think of is something is happening or has happened that has unsettled him, or is making him unhappy, possibly?

Things like starting school, a new sibling, parental worry/anxiety/illness, or, remotely in terms of likelihood, someone not being very nice to him at school (adult or child)...it could be anything or it could be none of these and just a phase.

My 5yo has started being a bit more stroppy lately but then I know why, I've just had a new baby - so it's obvious! I feel for you.

I'm in agreement with those above but do think that lots of specific praise for positive behaviour goes hand in hand with a more disciplined approach.

I wanted to say that the fact he can behave at school and used to behave well until recently are really positive signs you can turn this around. 5 is also a very pliable age.

I'd sit down with his dad and think about what needs to change. What are your top priorities for behaviour that is completely unacceptable. I'd work on one or two these (e.g. Hitting, hand holding, swearing ) then work down to other more irritating issues (coat hung on floor).

The incredible years by Caroline Webster Stratton is a very practical book and just right for 5 year olds.

Obviously the book is for you but a good approach for parents of 5 year olds

It is fairly typical 5yr old behaviour - especially when starting school. He is following instructions, having to concentrate, be nice to others, take turns etc- he comes out with lots if energy and wanting to relax and do exactly as he wants to do.

Sorry, I didn't mean that you shouldn't praise him- of course you should- but be specific - don't just do it all the time or it washes off him.

We have been concerned about our 5yr old ds' behaviour, which sounds identical to what you have described, even to the point of calling us 'idiot' and causing problems with his big & little sister. He is a lovely, loving boy who is sociable, with lots of friends and is definitely capable of behaving well.

Behaviour seems to be fine at school and the main problem highlighted is that he is not listening at all. This is greatly affecting his work and he is not working to his potential at all - very frustrating.

This week at home has actually been great - we have been out at the park on bikes or playing in the garden every day and I'm beginning to think that is exactly what he has needed and was been missing out on.

You can't underestimate how tiring school is to a 5yr old.

I think am hoping the not listening thing is actually quite common. DD (just 6) is really bad at this. Sometimes it is just because she is so focussed on what she's doing, which is ok in my book although profoundly irritating and she does get spoken to about it, because it's quite rude IMO. But sometimes it's because she doesn't like what she hears and those we do crack down on.
Ditto the back chat etc. She is constantly provoking her little brother, has to play with whatever he's playing with and actively seeks to wind him up. We're very clear about what's ok and not, I think this is a stage tbh.

Apparently they turn into angels at 7 .

Thank you everyone for your replies. We do send him straight up to his bedroom whenever he is rude. There are consequences for bad behaviour but I agree we need to be firmer and more consistent.

I try to praise a lot because I believe it builds his self esteem and confidence, which he was lacking last year, but maybe I am praising too much. I didn't know that was possible!

I agree he needs lots of exercise, he seems to be becoming more and more active. There is not a lot of time spent sitting down at school and they don't have desks either, it is a very creative environment, but there have been no issues raised at school with regards to listening.

I can't say specifically what is causing his behaviour but I think it may be jealousy. He has never shown jealous behaviour towards his sister before, she is 3, but maybe he feels jealous because he is at school all day and she is with me all day except 2 mornings. It is difficult to spend time alone with him because she no longer naps and follows us everywhere. Dp took him to football alone yesterday and I think ds really benefitted from the one on one time.

I do think we need to be clearer about what is expected of him and set firmer boundaries. I have always prided myself on having clear boundaries and sanctions, but things are changing and I need to re think what they are.

Firstly you have to let go of the idea that he has turned into a "rude and belligerent child." You are putting him a horrible box that is going to colour how you view all of his behaviour. You have to start from the idea that he is still the lovely child he always was, but at the moment he's struggling to deal with things and his behaviour isn't great as a result. If you take a more compassionate, less judgemental view of what's happening it will help your patience immensely and it will immediately improve things. Even children this young know when they're being viewed negatively and generally pissed off vibe can lead them to get into a rut of bad behaviour that they find very hard to get out of.

Strip it all back and work on one thing at a time. Focus on dangerous or violent behaviours first and crack down on them big time. Ignore everything else, even the "idiot" thing. Just don't respond. If he does do something other than the "focus" behaviour just do whatever it takes to remedy the situation (including removing him bodily) but don't get angry, comment or punish. You might find that at first his behaviour actually gets worse because he's trying to get a response - but don't crack. If necessary avoid situations where you know his behaviour will be an issue.

Forget the pointless praise for nothing, he's far too old for that. Cultivate some special time with him - maybe before bed - where you have a cuddle and a chat and you are just comfy and relaxed with him.

This will turn around. 5 is a tough age. I presume he's in Y1 which is tough going for a lot of kids, there are high expectations and it's very very tiring (I say this as a former primary teacher). He's not deliberately trying to annoy you, he's just lost the plot a bit and you need to try to keep things on as even a keel as possible until he comes out of it. There's no need to spend the time being negative and stressed, it's just all part of growing up and tough as it is you just need to take it on the chin as much as you can, manage things as best you can and just get through it with as many nice bits as possible. He's still your baby, and he needs your help.

I can sympathise. Five year old's can be really hard work. I agree with the other poster who said to consider if there's anything that has happened that might have set off this attack of bad behaviour. Maybe something that's happened at school.
It sounds like you've done a really great job of having a loving well behaved boy up to now, so maybe something's happened to upset him.
I am sure that you will be able to get his behaviour back on track and recognise the boy you know and love so much!! I was just reading in 'How to talk to kids so the kids will listen so the kids will talk,' that all bad behaviour comes from 'bad feelings.' Like it or not kids do actually use their bad behaviour, as a red flag to tell us that they are having a hard time in life and so it's really important to look at the feelings that might lie behind bad behaviour. I actually don't think kids behave badly when they are happy, so this is an important area to look at. Hand in Hand Parenting has great advice to help their children with their feelings.

I would also suggest that sending him to his bedroom may have an adverse affect on his behaviour. Although it stops behaviour in the short term, in the long term, the time out technique makes behaviour worse. The child interprets it as withdrawal of love, and seperation and isolation from the family. I've just been reading all about this in Unconditional parenting, which I really recommend.
It's possible that time out is really affective when parents first start using it, because a child is desperate to be included in the family again, and so behaves, but in the long run, the anger and resentment that time out causes more upset feelings that cause more misbehaviour.
Praise also actually has a long term adverse effect on behaviour because a child is looking for the praise rather than doing things because they want to.
There's more in Unconditional Parenting that explains about alternatives.
Hope things improve soon.

My nearly 7 year old DS went through this. I'm pleased to say that he's much easier to reason with and calm these days! Just got my DD, who has just hit 4, but acts like 14 now!

I have just shown this post to my DH. He asked me if I wrote it!

We don't get "idiot" but every one is a poo-poo head.

I just feel like I am going terribly wrong. We also get stinky, poo head etc. He is not violent, rarely hits or anything like that, but his attitude is terrible. I have tried talking to him at a calm time but the reality is, he doesn't actually know why he is behaving like this.

He is playing nicely, albeit very loudly, with dd this morning so that is good to see.

I really hate sending him to his room, it feels like we are casting him out and having a merry old time without him. Horrible. We did use time out successfully when he was younger, i.e on a mat in the corner, so he wasn't out of sight, just removed from the situation. I don't know what to do really but I have taken on board everyone's advice, I'm very grateful for it.

It is a phase - once they start school they discover toilet humour. It will pass. When you get to the next one of 'I hate you mummy' there is no need to take it seriously! There will always be 'a phase'!

Of course he doesn't know why he is doing it, he is a small child trying to deal with emotions. It is a learning curve for him.

You are catastrophising and overreacting I think (in the nicest possible way!). He will sense how worked up you are about this, and it'll only make things worse. His attitude is not terrible. He is 5, he doesn't have an attitude. He just responds to things, often in the wrong way, because he's 5. Give him a break!

I think perhaps your expectations are too high - maybe from the fact that he's at school and he seems so grown up compared to his younger sister. He's still very very little and hasn't a clue really. His "bad" behaviour isn't as a result of anything going wrong, it's just a normal part of development. It's fine, really, it'll be ok, and as long as he doesn't get constant negative messages he will come out of it eventually. The only way that things could go really wrong is if his relationship with you and his dad was damaged by this phase.

You don't have to send him to his room. You could have a bean bag or big cushion, tell him that you know he is angry - hit the cushion - or something else you think might work.

You are not doing anything wrong- he is a normal 5yr old.

Children test boundaries - some more than others!

It's a bit sneaky but what often works with 5 year olds is acting like they're misbehaving because they don't understand what they're doing rather than because they've chosen to. So you explain things to him as though he doesn't know what to do - it can prickle their pride a bit and make them show the "good" behaviour as a way of proving they do actually know what they're doing. So, for example, if he says something rude to his sister, rather than getting annoyed, you go all patronising and say "The way we talk to little ones is like this," etc etc. 5 year olds really like to show they know it all - appeal to that!

Thing is he should only be up there for 5 mins and if he's up there all the time you need to rethink your plan. I think there are different approach positive parenting or unconditional - you need to decide which one is yours then stick to it.

Re praise I think catching children being good, specific labelled praise, 'thanks for playing quietly while I was on the phone' builds self esteem and helps kids learn sociable behaviour (which ultimately widens their opportunities). Saying 'good boy' all the time not so much. We all need feed back and it's a balance to the tellings off.