When does overly boisterous harmful behaviour finally become unacceptable? Very long...

[BollyGood]

I am not sure if this is the right place to post, hopefully it is. I am at a complete loss as to how to sort out a problem at school.
Dd is 6.5 kind gentle hardworking girl, never ever been in trouble for anything. She has been 'friends' with a little girl since reception but it has always been very tempestuous to say the least. Not on my dd's part. In the beginning she would come home with fairly deep scratches on her hands and arms and seem very distressed and not want to go to school. She tried to explain what was happening but I decided to see for myself. I volunteered as I planned to anyway at our school. The little girl hurt my daughter regularly. I didn't get involved, I called the teaching assistant to sort out any disputes and kept my distance. It was eye opening to say the least. On just one occasion she came up behind my dd who was playing with the dollhouse and smacked her round the head with a large hard plastic doll, she regularly used to lay on her and crush her.

The teacher was fantastic and dealt swiftly with the problem, I spoke to the parent and we actually ended up quite friendly, she is a lovely woman and mum. Unfortunately the incidents continued and the little girl became very domineering and controlling over my dd the more friendly they became. It is awful to tell your child not to play with someone and I did try very hard not to do this. The little girl also tore up a book dd had brought in for a project, the teacher apologised and offered to replace it. It all came to a head when my dd ended biting the girl in retaliation, she had had enough and quite literally bit back. The school were again great and said it was understandable as she had put up with so much, dd apologised to the girl and the mum and I had a chat and agreed her dd was too boisterous but my dd should not have retaliated (she had as I said put up with so much I wouldn't have lasted that long) and we would work together to make sure things were ok. I secretly hoped dd would eventually drift away and form other friendships but the girl wouldn't really let her.

Moving into year 1, the first term dd came home with a deep bite which was bleeding. I spoke to the teacher she thought they were great buddies and was surprised but took it very seriously. Dd was extremely distressed. Mother apologised and brought a sorry gift in, little girl also very sorry. There were several incidents throughout the year but none as serious, mainly little girl banging into dd very hard, grabbing and shouting at her but all in the name of play apparently. Dd still wanted to be friends and I kept on trying to have a good relationship with her mum so it would be easier to sort out any disputes.

Dd is a creature of habit and personally I feel it is a habitual friendship as she can't avoid the girl at school even if she wanted too. They moved into year 2 this September, all was quiet until mid December. Dd came home so upset as the girl had allegedly pushed her over and crushed her in the style of behaviour from reception, wouldn't let dd get up. She also kept kicking her leg one day and wouldn't stop, I have taught dd to clearly say please stop or I don't like that and eventually to tell someone. Little girl kept saying these things were accidental.

We went to their nativity and dh and I were watching as little girl repeatedly head butted our dd as they were sat quietly, a teacher was also sat very close by but obviously couldn't see. We wanted to get her attention but too far away. Dd ended up giving her a push back after moving away several times which stopped her. Had a teacher seen that they probably would have told dd off not realising what had happened.At home dd was upset and hurt that this had happened as she just loves school and hates the behaviour of this girl. I was planning to go in to speak to someone but dd came home and said she is being nicer mummy I will be ok. I explained I would still come into school but discreetly and try to make things better and ensure it didn't happen again.

Against my better judgement I left it for a few days,but asked dd to let me know if anything else happened. More physical stuff did so I contacted the mother to say please could you have a chat and try to explain dd is unhappy and in her words frightened of the little girl because the boisterous behaviour has started up again. She said she would talk to her and I heard nothing more.

Coming back to school in jan I left it a week to see if the mum would speak to me and planned to yet again go back into school to speak to the teacher but yet again there was another incident,the girl apparently screamed in my dd's face frightening her so much she fell and bruised her head. The teacher said they were playing tag in the cloakroom, dd is absolutely insistent this was not the case at all.Today it was a nasty scratch on the top of her hand. The teacher at the time dealt with this as dd said it was on purpose. The girl admitted it and apologised. I finally had a reply from her mum, very matter of fact saying she had spoken to school they didn't see a problem and if there were any issues would contact us. No thought to dd being hurt, she said she was aware of the incident but had no concerns. I realised today she too has had enough and is no longer prepared to sort it out with me. She asked school how could she know what was going on and didn't think there were any problems. In denial, sadly so, and who wouldn't be but it is not going to help matters at all

I went in for a meeting to discuss all of this with the teacher and was so shocked to find her defending and trivialising the incidents. She did in the end after checking with previous teachers and the history of incidents say they are taking it all seriously and making sure my dd is happy and safe but the mother feels HER daughter is being picked on because I have asked that this stops. Is it me or am I going mad in thinking this behaviour is no longer boisterous or never really was? The teacher even said yes she is very boisterous but doesnt mean any of it and is mortified afterwards. The mum had shown her my text but declined to mention we were actually friendly and had always managed to sort things out, it looks as though I have randomly text her asking that her daughter stop this behaviour. I explained everything to the teacher and she was surprised we had a good relationship.

I have been so so so patient as has dd and dh but we have all had enough. Going back in tomorrow to discuss today's injury but with dh this time who is livid but will be calm (I hope) the thing which comes to my mind is my dd has never( apart from the retaliation incident 2.5years ago) hurt another child or her siblings, she is never hurt by any other child at school accidental or otherwise. There have been far to many other incidents to mention. I just got the feeling that the behaviour is being dismissed, the teacher spoke about a nurturing group at school to teach the girl about boundaries and such like as i said if she honestly doesnt mean itand doesnt understand then can you help her to not push herself on dd and understand she is hurting her,then she went on to speak about improving dd's confidence to speak up. She bloody well has numerous times!!! I want to know if there are to be any consequences in future for physically hurting dd, I want it to stop now but realistically I don't see how. This is massively long but I feel we have done everything right and are being royally fobbed off. Thank you if you have lasted this long

Please do not send her into a place where she continually gets assaulted.

It's normalising abuse.

If your DD cannot move class, move schools, the school seem to be unable to look after her, so move.

It sounds like they need to be separated to me. This girl sounds like she has got accustomed to using your poor DD as a punchbag and your DD has got used to being treated like this. It isn't good for either of them, but is much worse for your DD.
I am amazed how patient you have been. Is there a parallel class your DD could move into?

Oh thanks for replying, I have been sitting here quietly going mad thinking about today's meeting. It really is unacceptable isn't it? I have been stupid to be so patient and yes it is unfair to send dd there. She has always said she loves her school though and her other friends since years 1 and 2. I think because up until now the mum has been lovely I kept hoping it would stop and it is assault isn't it??? That's the part which is so awful.

I have just copied the anti bullying policy to take in tomorrow and made notes for one final meeting. The girls are now already in opposite classes but the 'friend' and dd are in certain groups together. The teacher told me today with a kind of patronising look that my dd actively seeks out this girl to play with,the school playground is not big she couldn't avoid her if she tried. But she is a nice child and has enjoyed playing with her on occasion, children are very forgiving.

You are both right and I know in the back of my mind I have been too nice. I think because sometimes there were fairly long gaps between the bouts of behaviour and dd was happy to stay I kind of accepted it. It is malicious behaviour but school or this particular teacher doesn't seem to see it that way. She is in fact head of year. At one point you know she almost, almost but not quite tried to insinuate my dd could be a bit sensitive which is possibly what the mum has said. I actually asked her if that is what she as implying in quite a loud voice for me as was shocked and she backtracked and said oh no,no of course not as if she realised her mistake.

There is one other school nearby, quite a bit further away I will speak to dd tomorrow after this last meeting. Any suggestions on getting my feelings and dd's across in a way that they simply cannot argue with? I have as I said looked at the policy and it clearly states they will never trivialise incidents and every child is listened to, physical harm is unacceptable etc.

Is it me or is there a trend to be more sympathetic to the bully and family? Except it she isn't a bully apparently. If there was a definite reason for her behaviour, fair enough but there is nothing as yet which has been mentioned Maybe this will flag up something for this little girl if she genuinely doesn't mean to hurt others. Who knows.

A school nearby but quite far away?? Am very tired! I meant one nearby and another quite far away

So sorry your family is being put through this.

If the other child does have 'ishoos' you won't be told about it, it would be invading her and her family's privacy.

I think it's too late at night to be making any big decisions, as you say you're very tired (and so am I but just wanted to make that point above ).

Good luck and will be watching.

there is a definition of bullying that they teach children, and I cannot for the life of me remember it, It is one of those with a catchy word to remember something like
STOP but the words stand for something like - something more than once that you don't like

I think you need to stop discussing it with the other mother at all. Of course she is fed up, she loves her dd and doesn't want her labelled, she has to fight her dd's corner.

I think I would write a list of all th eincidents you can rememeber:

reception:
bite to hand (bleeding)
scratch on face (bleeding)
pushed against cupboard (bruised)

etc etc, because the list even as you have given it suggests a pattern and the school needs to see it. Because there rae 3 teachers over the years it is less obvious to them

Hope it goes well tomorrow

sorry read that back and it sounds as if I am on side of other dd, no I'm not I am just saying she won't want to talk about it

I don't think you should rush into moving school if your DD is happy there, maybe they could just be seperated. Our DD was bullied for a short while around the age of 7, her headmistress told us the trouble with moving a child then is they take their "victim" feelings with them and continue to feel low; the ideal is to resolve the situation.

Don't give up just because this one teacher is dealing with this badly. Dig out any texts, notes, etc you have to substantiate dates, incidents, chats with other mum, etc and go over her to the head. Tell the head you will be writing to the governors highlighting the failure of the head of year to deal with this.

Sounds hellish. Firstly I'd be extremely assertive and firm at tomorrow's meeting requesting that under no circumstances is your dd to be seated anywhere near bully girl in classroom and when she eats lunch.
I know it's against school policy but bollocks to telling a teacher if someone punches you in the face, bullies prey on easy targets that they can manipulate and intimidate. I've raised my dc's to defend themselves if physically attacked, it worked for us ( I have 1ds and 1dd). If you feel that this really isn't an option for you then I would seriously consider moving schools. I've no doubt that you'll use this meeting to make your side of the situation crystal clear, remind them that when your daughter is in school they are as adult professionals with a duty of care personally responsible for your daughters safety and well being.

There is a difference between boisterous children and picking on a kid.
My dd is boisterous and has lost her temper and lashed out but only a few times, never at the same kids and never really thought about what she was doing and was devastated to hear she had hurt someone. This kid seems to just do what she likes and the mum and the school are letting her get away with it. There is obviously something going on with this other kid. And it is not fair that your dd should have to put up with this behaviour. The school should have put a stop to it in reception.
Just an idea... Is there anyway the school can buddy your dd up with another kid she is friendly with at playtime and during these groups? That way there are two of them and less likely to be intimidated and the buddy can get a teacher if something happens. I just can not for the life of me work out why this was allowed to continue by the school.
If my dd gets upset or agitated the TA or the teacher remove other children so they are safe, it's horrible as the parent of the dd with behavioural issues, but I'd rather that than a kid get hurt by her. The school were very quick to act.
I would definetely bring up closer supervision during playtimes. The other parent seems like she doesn't want to admit her kid is in the wrong. Some parents don't. But she has to act on it, if it stops being your kid, whose kid is it next?

I hope you manage to sort it out... I really feel for you and your dd. x

Well, have been up with the baby since 5.30 and had plenty of time to think. The thing I like about mumsnet is we don't just tell each other what we want to hear, there are occasions when you don't want to read and agree but in my case you have all strengthened my resolve to handle this today. I had it all just going round and round in my head and nothing about the situation poor dd has been in is excusable at all. I feel disappointed in our school but I will give them a last opportunity to help dd. the incident yesterday just compounds everything we have been discussing on here. The teacher told me they had spoken to the girl and dd regarding last Fridays incident and obviously this girl feels untouchable and blames dd for telling because she hurt her again even after knowing it was very much out in the open. They HAVE to do something today. Thanks again you all sound like lovely parents and dinkysmummy your dd is lucky to have you, you sound so caring and responsible.Will post later after I have been to school.

I don't think the other girls behaviour is going to change unless something else changes majorly, ie the school takes decisive action and separates them. The girl clearly feels that she can get away with behaving like that to your DD.
It doesn't sound like boisterous behaviour, much of it sounds much too deliberate.
I would also be concerned re what your DD is learning about putting up with abusive relationships.
Somebody somewhere needs to take decisive action over this and separate the children.

Oops repeated myself

This post makes me incredibly uncomfortable. Unless I have read it wrong for 2 years plus your child has been essentially trained by a bully to be bullied and no decisive action was taken? None.

She was bitten!! Animals bite and no amount if "sorry" gifts make anything better.

Fast forward this, a woman in a long term abusive relationship, doesn't ask for help as she believes it won't come as he buys her yet another gift to say sorry for the black eye, how does this happen? Rewind...

So now it's all to mediation, meetings, positions as the grown ups all try to apportion blame and argue over procedural technicalities.

This makes me mad, Schools don't have anti bullying policies, they have "this is the minimum we have to do to prevent ourselves bring sued policies". Schools don't protect children, they protect themselves, nothing else.

I hope this gets fixed by resolute parental action, if it means a few stand up rows at the school gates then so be it. Go to win.

I hope your meeting went well. It is awful that your child has endured this for so long. If you have not done so already you need to give them - in writing - the same information as you have provided here. Approximate dates, events, injuries etc including contact you have had with the other parent. You need a commitment from the school that firm and appropriate action will be taken against this other child. They must have an anti bullying policy and a behaviour/discipline policy. Do you know if the girl repeats any of this behaviour with children apart from your daughter?

I would want them separated and would be seeking to have the other child transferred to a different class in the year group, if they have one. I would be telling them that if your child continues to come home hurt you will be photographing the injuries and seeking legal advice as your child has the legal right to be kept safe at school. Whilst we all accept that rough and tumble and scratches and bumps are normal this is your child being deliberately and repeatedly hurt and the school has a duty of care to protect her. Good luck.

Have you had your meeting yet?
Don't accept any suggestion that it is your daughter's fault for being an easy target or that she somehow needs to be more assertive.
I have been in your shoes twice with two of my three well behaved, non-violent children. It is not that they were victims; each time it was targeted behaviour from one child.
Personally when one child at nursery had scratched my DS with a stick leaving a scar on his face to this day i withdrew him instantly, (last of many incidents) because the teachers told me he needed to 'be more assertive'. To me, they were totally failing to keep him safe.

Good Luck! Let us know how you get on.

Your poor DD. I agree with the earlier poster who suggested that you make a log of all the incidents you can recall. It's good that the two girls are in different classes but such a shame that they still seem drawn to each other. One of the things that will make it difficult, is that the child whose behaviour clearly merits intervention, is not your child, so the school is very limited in how much they can involve you.

There are all sorts of programmes that the school can put into place to help the other child - my child has problems in school and the LEA's Behaviour Support Team has been fantastic. They set up a friendship group and this has helped her learn about the qualities a good friend has, what to do if your friend upsets you, how to deal with conflict...It's been really helpful. The dinner ladies as well as the teachers and TAs all knew, when things were at their worst, to keep an eye on my DD so that the other children were safe. At the most basic level, they should make sure the other child's fingernails are kept short.

I'd recommend taking a two-pronged approach with the school: on the one hand, show them your record of the assaults, and make it clear that it is unacceptable and they are failing to keep your child safe. On the other hand, tell them that you are trying to work with the school and do what you can to support them in their obligation to support a child who clearly has problems. Whatever policy they have been following, it's not working, and they should seek help from outside agencies.

One other thing. Maybe this other child is getting extra help, maybe there are all sorts of programmes in place, maybe she has been threatened with exclusion (or even had a single-day exclusion). Most of the other parents at DD's school know nothing of the excruciating meetings, strategies, humiliations and worry that we've gone through, or how hard I've worked to implement the recommendations. The extra help my DD now gets has turned our lives around, and hers. My other children have had no problems in school, were near the top of their class, no problems with their behaviour...

When we were trying to find help for her, the times she did lash out at someone it was always such a relief (in a sick way!) to know that the other parent involved was someone reasonable and sympathetic (like you!). So although you need to be more pushy to protect your DD, I still think that continuing to treat the other mother and child in the way you'd like to be treated in her shoes, is the right thing to do

I have been thinking of you today and your appointment with the school. I have got my fingers crossed for you!

I've just read rolf's reply, and it's true they might have strategies in place for the other child's behaviour, the school can't tell you what those are if they are indeed in place. Just like the poor boy my dd hit over the head with a truck "because he didn't know how to play the game", the parents didn't know it was my dd, and had no idea that my dd is going to CAMHS, has a play therapist and the school are implimenting stragagies to keep the other children safe via trial and error.

However

The school obviously has not done enough to keep your dd safe. You have tried to discuss it with the other parent, you have taken it up with 3 different teachers and yet she is still being bullied. There needs to be adequate supervision during times the children are in close proximity. If I'm honest I don't know how you have kept your cool for this long! You deserve a medal!

I really hope that the school have been supportive, and are looking into really trying to resolve this. Like one other parent said, they are legally responsible for your dd. I'd threaten family lawyers, see them clamour over themselves then! the anti bullying policies are supposed to be adhered to no matter what the age of the children.

Hi everyone,I went into school very early this morning to make sure we have the meeting arranged for after school so dh can attend. The teacher seemed much more personable if that's the right word? I showed her the cut on dd's hand which is very inflamed and sore. She was visibly shocked and couldn't in any way say this incident was unintentional. She was very nice to dd and told her how brave she is for speaking up (in my mind I thought she already has spoken up numerous times you just do not listen) and dd explained her side of events for the previous incident in the cloakroom and how she definitely wasn't playing tag she was minding her own business when the girl frightened her by screaming at her,causing her to fall and injure her face.Teachers response was, well I will speak to the teacher who said you were playing tag and sort this out
.
I asked that dd and the girl are not seated together at all and playtime is supervised incase of further incidents, she said she would make sure this happened.She also said she would see us later on today and I explained dh is also livid and she agreed it was unacceptable, finally. I had a call whilst at baby singing group from school saying they can't do the meeting after school due to something or other and can we come in first thing in the morning. The head teacher will also be there tomorrow to attend. I think the teacher has realised the enormity of the situation and needs support to deal with it correctly, well I hope so anyway.

Dd was happy this morning on our walk to school she made up a silly story about me wearing a superhero cape and her super moshi mask ( from moshi monsters for the uninitiated!) and wearing my pants with strawberries on over my trousers to fly in and tell them to sort their school out. Gave me a laugh too she said that would make her laugh all day.

to you to rolf there are always two sides I know and I feel for you too. So will keep you posted tomorrow and hope finally school are going to do the right thing.

I have been thinking about you OP.

The girls are now in different classes, but come together for certan subjects., correct?
Don't speak or message the mum again. That part is over.
I fear the school will do little.
But, your daughter really does ALSO need to take responsibility. they are blaming her for searching out this girl. You need to sit down and make it very clear to your daughter than good freinds don't do this, and so she must basically ( not that you would say this), but she needs to get it into her head, that this friendship is over, OVER. She does not seek her out. at all. she plays with others.
They will keep blaming your dd, if they can. We must not give them the ammunition to.

x posted.
It all sounds quite naff and non commital by the school. My points still stand. I really hope you achieve something.

I just wanted to pop in and give you some support. You truly have been patient but for far too long. You have done the right thing and i really hope your meeting goes well tomorrow.

I was struck by the teacher defending herself by saying that your DD is drawn to the other girl. I seem to remember at school i wanted to be friends with the bullies so that they would stop hurting me (it only happened briefly but you see what i mean). Surely that is basic child psychology of which the teacher should have a teeny bit of knowledge!

Anyway:

Dd was happy this morning on our walk to school she made up a silly story about me wearing a superhero cape and her super moshi mask ( from moshi monsters for the uninitiated!) and wearing my pants with strawberries on over my trousers to fly in and tell them to sort their school out.

Please can we have photographic evidence of this

Agree with Martha. As a child you want to be 'liked'. The person who shows the cruelest behaviour to you is the one you are most going to want to 'win over'. Especially if they alternate the cruelty with a show of 'best friends' which is what it seems this other little girl is doing. A teacher should be aware of that basic dynamic.

I feel dreadfully sorry for your DD and also a little sorry for the other girl - she is obviously not happy either (not justifying her beaviour at all but there are always reasons)

I think your best ploys is for you and your DH to be united and clear that you consider this a serious case of bullying and you expect a clear course of action to be agreed on and that you will both remain involved and aware of progress. The school will not want to get a reputation as a school that doesn't deal with physical bullying seriously and based on what you have told us so far, you are going to have to get them to step up their plan to resolve the situation

Good luck (and your DD sounds gorgeous by the way)

OP, can I just say that you sound fantastic. I was in tears reading your post seriously hoping that it might also be because I might be PG, because you clearly love your DD so much and it must have been unbearable to see her being treated like that, but still manage to maintain the distance to handle it in a calm way and allow the school to (supposedly...) do their job.

I really hope that if I come up against a situation like this, I can handle it in the way that you have. I have a similar DD to you. She is only 3.5 though (and is the size of a 2.5 year old), is very quiet, very shy but seems to be incredibly popular and is invited to many many parties. But she is over-sensitive, whereas it sounds like your DD isn't sensitive, just polite and well brought-up! So I do worry what will happen to DD when she starts school in September. I'm not sure how I get her to toughen up, but as I say, if I ever come across this situation, I hope I handle it the way you have.

I really hope that the meeting goes well tomorrow morning and I will look back to see how you get on.

I think you're too patient, personally. As well as taking it up with the school I'd have been perfectly happy to tell or encourage my DD to find better friends - at quite an early stage.