When does overly boisterous harmful behaviour finally become unacceptable? Very long...

[BollyGood]

I am not sure if this is the right place to post, hopefully it is. I am at a complete loss as to how to sort out a problem at school.
Dd is 6.5 kind gentle hardworking girl, never ever been in trouble for anything. She has been 'friends' with a little girl since reception but it has always been very tempestuous to say the least. Not on my dd's part. In the beginning she would come home with fairly deep scratches on her hands and arms and seem very distressed and not want to go to school. She tried to explain what was happening but I decided to see for myself. I volunteered as I planned to anyway at our school. The little girl hurt my daughter regularly. I didn't get involved, I called the teaching assistant to sort out any disputes and kept my distance. It was eye opening to say the least. On just one occasion she came up behind my dd who was playing with the dollhouse and smacked her round the head with a large hard plastic doll, she regularly used to lay on her and crush her.

The teacher was fantastic and dealt swiftly with the problem, I spoke to the parent and we actually ended up quite friendly, she is a lovely woman and mum. Unfortunately the incidents continued and the little girl became very domineering and controlling over my dd the more friendly they became. It is awful to tell your child not to play with someone and I did try very hard not to do this. The little girl also tore up a book dd had brought in for a project, the teacher apologised and offered to replace it. It all came to a head when my dd ended biting the girl in retaliation, she had had enough and quite literally bit back. The school were again great and said it was understandable as she had put up with so much, dd apologised to the girl and the mum and I had a chat and agreed her dd was too boisterous but my dd should not have retaliated (she had as I said put up with so much I wouldn't have lasted that long) and we would work together to make sure things were ok. I secretly hoped dd would eventually drift away and form other friendships but the girl wouldn't really let her.

Moving into year 1, the first term dd came home with a deep bite which was bleeding. I spoke to the teacher she thought they were great buddies and was surprised but took it very seriously. Dd was extremely distressed. Mother apologised and brought a sorry gift in, little girl also very sorry. There were several incidents throughout the year but none as serious, mainly little girl banging into dd very hard, grabbing and shouting at her but all in the name of play apparently. Dd still wanted to be friends and I kept on trying to have a good relationship with her mum so it would be easier to sort out any disputes.

Dd is a creature of habit and personally I feel it is a habitual friendship as she can't avoid the girl at school even if she wanted too. They moved into year 2 this September, all was quiet until mid December. Dd came home so upset as the girl had allegedly pushed her over and crushed her in the style of behaviour from reception, wouldn't let dd get up. She also kept kicking her leg one day and wouldn't stop, I have taught dd to clearly say please stop or I don't like that and eventually to tell someone. Little girl kept saying these things were accidental.

We went to their nativity and dh and I were watching as little girl repeatedly head butted our dd as they were sat quietly, a teacher was also sat very close by but obviously couldn't see. We wanted to get her attention but too far away. Dd ended up giving her a push back after moving away several times which stopped her. Had a teacher seen that they probably would have told dd off not realising what had happened.At home dd was upset and hurt that this had happened as she just loves school and hates the behaviour of this girl. I was planning to go in to speak to someone but dd came home and said she is being nicer mummy I will be ok. I explained I would still come into school but discreetly and try to make things better and ensure it didn't happen again.

Against my better judgement I left it for a few days,but asked dd to let me know if anything else happened. More physical stuff did so I contacted the mother to say please could you have a chat and try to explain dd is unhappy and in her words frightened of the little girl because the boisterous behaviour has started up again. She said she would talk to her and I heard nothing more.

Coming back to school in jan I left it a week to see if the mum would speak to me and planned to yet again go back into school to speak to the teacher but yet again there was another incident,the girl apparently screamed in my dd's face frightening her so much she fell and bruised her head. The teacher said they were playing tag in the cloakroom, dd is absolutely insistent this was not the case at all.Today it was a nasty scratch on the top of her hand. The teacher at the time dealt with this as dd said it was on purpose. The girl admitted it and apologised. I finally had a reply from her mum, very matter of fact saying she had spoken to school they didn't see a problem and if there were any issues would contact us. No thought to dd being hurt, she said she was aware of the incident but had no concerns. I realised today she too has had enough and is no longer prepared to sort it out with me. She asked school how could she know what was going on and didn't think there were any problems. In denial, sadly so, and who wouldn't be but it is not going to help matters at all

I went in for a meeting to discuss all of this with the teacher and was so shocked to find her defending and trivialising the incidents. She did in the end after checking with previous teachers and the history of incidents say they are taking it all seriously and making sure my dd is happy and safe but the mother feels HER daughter is being picked on because I have asked that this stops. Is it me or am I going mad in thinking this behaviour is no longer boisterous or never really was? The teacher even said yes she is very boisterous but doesnt mean any of it and is mortified afterwards. The mum had shown her my text but declined to mention we were actually friendly and had always managed to sort things out, it looks as though I have randomly text her asking that her daughter stop this behaviour. I explained everything to the teacher and she was surprised we had a good relationship.

I have been so so so patient as has dd and dh but we have all had enough. Going back in tomorrow to discuss today's injury but with dh this time who is livid but will be calm (I hope) the thing which comes to my mind is my dd has never( apart from the retaliation incident 2.5years ago) hurt another child or her siblings, she is never hurt by any other child at school accidental or otherwise. There have been far to many other incidents to mention. I just got the feeling that the behaviour is being dismissed, the teacher spoke about a nurturing group at school to teach the girl about boundaries and such like as i said if she honestly doesnt mean itand doesnt understand then can you help her to not push herself on dd and understand she is hurting her,then she went on to speak about improving dd's confidence to speak up. She bloody well has numerous times!!! I want to know if there are to be any consequences in future for physically hurting dd, I want it to stop now but realistically I don't see how. This is massively long but I feel we have done everything right and are being royally fobbed off. Thank you if you have lasted this long

Am i being too quick to suggest OFSTED? Or do you go to the governers first. My DS is the same age as katniss (born a week apart!) so i dont know the 'ropes' yet.

My DS is also quiet but seems drawn to the boisterous ones, he has been picked on at nursery before but by a boy who picks on everyone IYSWIM. Nursery have been fantastic about it but i really dont know how it will be at school.

Good luck this morning OP

It sounds as if it went very well and I am pleased for you. If they can manage the steps they have said they will put in place then that will be good. I would want them to know what long term strategies they plan on using to ensure that this girl can play safely with others in the future. Managing things in this way can only go on so long after all and hopefully they will have a long term plan so that eventually there will be no need for your DD to have a named person to go to etc. Overall though it sounds great. Well done you for having the pants :)

Just as a btw - you have used your DDs name in your post above so maybe you want to ask MN if they can delete it?

I think it sounds like the other girl has SN and the mother is not picking up on it.

I noticed DD's name too. Hopefully MN can just edit the name and not the post as it is very useful.

OP i am so happy for you. It is early days but looks like the school are taking all the right steps to support and care for your DD. I would maybe avoid speaking or texting the other mother, much as you would like to (i know - have been there). However if you see her at the gates for example just maybe a friendly nod and smile. No need to go into specifics.

It also sounds like there are other things in place for the other girl. Good. Because if it isnt your DD it will be someone else's.

And am glad that my little intervention helped you along the way (the bully/victim thing). I am not sure what the answer is about the other two girls. They are going to be torn if they like both your DD and the other girl. However if they can see that the other girl is a bully they may gravitate towards your DD. Remember girls at this age chop and change friends all the time. She will find her way.

So glad have a and a nice cake with your feet up for a job well done.

As an aside - your DD will never forget this. I have seen threads where MNers always remember a time when their parents stuck up for them.

Thank you adoptamama didn't see that.

Will copy and then repost

I do like the mum so, so much and I hope things eventually will be ok. She is such a kind person who I genuinely felt was a friend.

One thing that occurs to me as I read the post is that the school do not seem to be asking themselves if the child is also attacking other children. They really ought to consider that possibility

aarrgghh your post has been removed rather than edited. can you be bothered to repost so that others can see what a superhero you are!

I'd complain to OFSTED about the school not addressing this very serious issue.

Yes, would love to see the post sans your DD's name. Sounds like you have been a fab mum

Thank you everyone. I am back, I wore the strawberry pants under my jeans not over

Well, the meeting went far better than I expected and thanks to all of your insights and excellent advice I was able to keep it together,as was DH and get our case across as well as how dd feels about it all.

Initially the head teacher wanted us to speak first so I ran through the events from mid December and before. The headteacher had a plan in place which she discussed at length and agreed dd had been though too much. She was apologetic and didn't disagree with anything I said. Nothing was said about dd being too sensitive and I feel she listened to us.

Dh insisted they make the father of the girl come in as he is never involved with school and dh thinks the parents should work together to accept this problem in order to solve it. Head teacher explained she can't force him to come in and doesn't have control over their private life to that extent, obviously I know this but dh is annoyed the father is not involved. I asked if the school had told the parents of the latest attack on dd and they avoided my question so I insisted they at least tell them today. I don't want information cherry picked and handed out to suit. The head didn't like this comment but I am past caring.

Dd's coat peg is being moved to the classroom next to the teachers, she really likes this idea and they are arranging supervision for times when perhaps there are not all eyes to see in the playground. The girl will be attending various groups to help her understand her actions and dd will be supported to speak up. All well and good if they listen I said and again received an apology for misunderstanding dd and not giving her enough of a voice.

At no time will the girls be alone or sat together. The only thing which really niggled me and I did tell them straight away was the constant talk of dd seeking the girl out to play with. They don't like you to tell your children not to play with others so I never took that approach. I spoke about the victim bully dynamic (thank you for that advice!!) and rather surprised them both I think. The head of year suggested dd find two other good friends instead. I pointed out there are four girls in their group including the girl and dd so should dd have to leave her friends to find others? I feel that is wrong. Head of year said she didn't realise they were all part of the same group. She said they can split them into pairs to play. Still not good enough. I said you need to watch them to ensure dd doesn't become isolated from the group and it ends up to be the other girl who gets to play with her friends but dd is left out. Seemed an idiotic suggestion to me that dd leave to seek other friends?? Anyway that is not going to happen, apparently.

We are meeting again in two weeks time to find out how dd feels, the parents reaction to the plan and possible acceptance that there is a problem. Head teacher was adamant that due to confidentiality we will not really know everything. Having again read advice on here I understand this as you never know there may already be strategies in place. After all the discussion head of year was still insistent the girl was so sorry and didn't mean it, I politely told her I feel for the family but my daughters safety is paramount and I now disagree with her intensely after the latest injury dd had to her hand. The teacher who dealt with it has agreed he felt it was extremely mean and definitely not as a resultt of boisterous behaviour. Possibly the head of year knows something I don't but I did ask her about consequences for the girls actions when she hurts others. They are also discussing this too, apparently ( i am still sceptical )but I am far happier, more importantly so is dd.

She has a named adult to go to on the playground everyday rather than searching around for whoever is on duty. They will check in with her regularly everyday. The head was instant to the head of year that dd is to be protected all the time from any possible situations and to never be seated or paired with this girl if anyone makes a mistake or isn't aware she will take action. They apologised to dd for saying she was playing tag in the cloakroom when she clearly wasn't and apologised for not contacting me last friday when she was distraught after the screaming in ear incident. The head also said on the way out that dd is an absolute delight to have in her school and she will make everything right for her.

So that's it for now. Any thoughts if you have them will be great as I think I am happy with what the school are doing. Is there anything else I may have missed? I did also ask for some sort of reconciliation with the other parent to make life at the school gate easier, for the school to facilitate something once we are all calm. Apparently the mum has also said she didn't want me to think she has ignored my messages but she needed to know exactly what has gone on from the schools prospective. Maybe this will be the process of denial and then acceptance for her that there really is an issue with her child's harmful behaviour and it is no longer considered boisterous. Thank you for all of your support mumsnetters, me and dd feel a million times better than we did when I posted the other day

That sounds like a good plan. I hope it works. Well done for standing your ground!

Huzzah!!!!!

That's great that the school are FINALLY taking it seriously.
I'm happy for you and your dd! And glad that there will be more supervision! At least you don't have to worry about dd so much now while she is at school.
Hopefully the other mum will start to accept her dd has an issue. It's good that the other child will be included in groups to help her understand her actions.

It all sounds very positive!

Great news and so happy that your DD feels reassured, and more importantly, protected.

Hopefully now that she has seen that the 'grown ups' at school believe her she will be quick to come forward with incidents if they occur. Better still, they won't.

It sounds like a very positive meeting. Well done to you and your DH for listening to DD and fighting her corner. It may seem the obvious thing to do, but sadly, that's not always the case.

Sounds like you did really well in the meeting and I hope they live up to their promises. Well done for sticking up for DD.

Excellent work there OP, well done.

Thanks everyone for the support. I feel like a weight has lifted and dd seems the same. It is awkward going into school but the little girls grandpa smiled and said hello to us today so hopefully things will get easier.

The girl went to speak to dd in the playground yesterday afternoon and she said she had been naughty and dd is very good. My heart tugged a bit at that, for all that has happened I would never want to make the child feel horrible about herself despite the things she has done. From dd's description the girl seemed very matter of fact about it and was happy they are going to a club together (nurture group) dd said if you are always nice to me it will be ok.

When we got home dd started questioning me about the 'club' she thought it was outside of school and she would have to go alone with the little girl. I explained exactly what it was and I said you do not have to go if you don't want too. Dd is fine with it and actually looking forward to doing something different to the norm at school,providing the other child is supervised, or 'watched' in her own words. I did tell her it is for the little girl mainly to understand how to be a good friend to others and not to hurt them.

The only niggle I feel is that school, if indeed it was the school who mentioned the nurture group should have told dd at the same time? I hadn't spoken about it as we were going to have the next meeting and I wanted to be sure about it all, then we didn't have the opportunity to speak to dd until after school that same day. She was a little bit worried and had been thinking she would be with the child unsupervised by school. Anyhow, moving on I will keep a close eye on everything.

Oh I should have added that there was a mention of nurture groups during the first meeting with the teacher, as a way of resolving behaviours and building confidence in my original post. But there were no definite plans hence my not mentioning it to dd.

I have seen this sort of things before.

What you describe is constant low key bullying and it seems to be accepted by the school. They are playing down the incidents and trying to put the responsibility on your DD by tell her she needs to speak up more. The fact of the matter is that the school must get to grips with the problem and take full responsibility for the issue - without pointing the finger at you DD. The real problem is weak behavior management in the classroom. The naughty girl needs proper discipline

Write up all previous incidents/teacher communications and also keep a diary with things as they happen. Record the outcomes also. Log everything in bullet points and email it to the head. Ask for the schools bullying policy. Explain that he/she needs to be aware of the situation as you will be taking the mater further if necessary. If it is all in writing, it is all logged more officially and will be dealt with in a more serious manner. Insist that the bullying stops now and that they put in place proper strategies to deal with the girls bad behavior. If the behavior continues write to the Governors with all the bullet points and previous communications. Involve OFTED and the LEA if necessary.

Don't communicate with the mum by the way. She seems to think her child's behavior is acceptable, so it's pointless trying to get her on board. The trick is to make the school take proper action and insist they make her aware of what is going on.

Also log that previous bulling has been played down by the school according to friend.