tantrums and saying no - this can't be normal

[NiceCupOfTeaAndASitDown]

I really think I need to get some professional help but thought I'd ask you lovely people for your advice first. This morning DS (22 months) had a screaming, hysterical tantrum for a full 45 minutes.. Is this normal?

Nothing I said or did could calm him down, it was like he'd got 'in the zone' and couldn't think of anything other than the thing he wanted, which he repeated over and over again, and we eventually managed to distract him with the tv (its not often on so a novelty I suppose) and now he seems like it never happened.. I don't want to talk to him about it in case it starts him off again.

The problem at the moment is milk, I'm tandem feeding him and his 8 week old sister so I know that he's had a huge upheaval in his life but basically he's refusing most food and wants to nurse like a newborn instead. I'm still suffering nursing aversion (hoped it would go when the baby arrived) and sometimes it's just not practical to feed him. This morning I let him nurse for 20 minutes and asked him to try and go back to sleep (I had warned him at the start that I'd let him nurse for a little while only) but he wanted to continue (if I let him stop when he's done he'll feed for 2 hours, no exaggeration and I can barely handle the 20 mins) and so went completely crazy when I told him it was time to stop (I count down from 5)

I tried to cuddle him but he arched his back, tried to get into a nursing position and kicked me, he screamed until I thought he'd be sick or go hoarse. I just feel that once I've said no I should stick to it because otherwise he'll get the message that if he screams for long enough he'll get what he wants.. It's just heartbreaking to know that if I just fed him he'd be fine (especially because I've always been so adamantly against cio) I'm not looking to wean him yet (he's definitely not ready) but it's becoming such a battle that I'm starting to resent him feeding and squirm when he does (I know this is something I need to talk to la leche league or similar about) plus im aware that if it wasn't the milk he was screaming about it'd be something else I'd said no to and I wouldn't have the nursing to fall back on as comfort.. I am just not sure if it's normal for a toddler to react like this to being told no (I am incredibly stubborn and so is DH so it's probably in his genes to stand his groubd) and I have no clue how to handle it (my mind goes blank so can't think of distractions and I don't think they'd work anyway)

So is this normal? And what should I do? I should probably add he's very verbal and able to express himself pretty well so I don't think it's a communication struggle thing, more an "I've been told no and I don't like it" thing.

There's no parenting courses in my area but I'm really struggling with his behaviour at the moment :-(

I think you'd be better off stopping nursing the toddler altogether, it doesn't sound like tandem feeding is working for either of you. He can't handle the mixed message of it being available part time and you may end up developing a nursing aversion for the infant which I imagine would be worst case scenario. Plus you mention you are starting to resent him.

Toddlers can indeed have almighty tantrums. Sounds well within normal.

I have a feeling you don't want to hear a word of that so yes contact BFN, LLL or NCT if you are determined to continue tandem feeding. Mothering.com is quite a Woo site & will have many determined tandem feeders who can offer advice & experience.

Tantrum sounds completely normal.

Can't advise on the feeding issue.

I'd agree with lljkk.

i think you did the right thing by sticking to your guns even though he was throwing a tantrum. in the long run he will learn that screaming will not get him his own way!

He's telling you that he's ready to stop bf - and at 22 months it won't do him any harm. I have an 18 month gap between my 2 sons and ds1 responded well to being 'involved' in ds2's routine - eg 'Shall we feed ds2 now?'.

As for 'Nothing I said or did could calm him down' I would say the best tactic is to ignore. If he's having a screaming tantrum just say 'I can see that you're cross - come and see me when you feel happy again' or similar.

This is classic attention-seeking behaviour and by interacting with him during the tantrum you are rewarding it.

Give him the chance to take control of his own behaviour - by interacting with him you are just fanning the flames. Then when he calms down and comes to you crouch down, give him a cuddle and plenty of attention. If he tries to come when still tantrumming just stand straight (no bending down to his level) and tell him firmly that you will speak to him when he's calmed down.

It's normal, especially when a new sibling appears. Hope your aversion settles, his tantrums will be about anything. Can well see why you wouldn't want to take his nursing away.

Be kind, be firm just like you were...you ,got it right. Hope today looks brighter and your unreasonable dictator wakes in a good mood.

I think some posters here are ready for you to stop nursing...

The book 'What Every Parent Needs To Know' is very good for telling you exactly why tantrums shouldn't be ignored.

I did expect to be advised to wean.. I appreciate what some of you are saying but I know I will know when the time is right. I am planning on starting gentle weaning in his own time. I don't think that the arrival of a sibling is a good time to snatch such a crutch away and I feel he will let me know when he's ready to stop.

Having said that if things get worse and our relationship starts to suffer then of course I would consider it, I'm not going to continue to the detriment of that.

Thank you all for your thoughts and advice. Sort of glad it's normal but it's scary to think we have years more of this, and it makes me feel so sad (and cross, is it normal to feel cross?) when he screams. I know he's safe but it must be so overwhelming for him.

I have never given in to his tantrums so I sort of can't understand why he carries on as if I will change my mind, but this is where I have to remind myself that he's a toddler and doesn't have adult logic!

I am hoping that by not giving in he will learn that no amount of screaming will change my mind, but I am also of the feeling that he's just expressing an emotion in the only way he knows how, so by ignoring it until he calms down aren't I saying his feelings don't count and he should bury them? - I want him to learn that feelings are OK but there are more acceptable ways of expressing them, but I think he's too young to get that all the while he has a primitive brain. Gosh this is hard!

I only have a 14 month old so I'm not exactly the voice of experience. Just wondered if he might be getting to the stage where you could begin to help him find other ways of expressing his frustration. Maybe teaching him a phrase would help - like "I am cross because..." & encouraging the use of the phrase before his frustration escalates to a full blown tantrum. This would probably take him a while to get the hang of but could give him a calmer way to express himself & would open up a discussion about his feelings so you could let him know that you're not dismissing him but also that he can't necessarily get what he wants all the time. I know of some people who have done this successfully & I'm starting to introduce a 'I can see you're cross' monologue when my DS gets upset but given that he's not got any proper words yet I suspect it'll be a little while yet before we'll be calmly discussing his frustrations!

Jojo sounds like a good idea and something I will probably use in the future, I do already try and validate his feelings 'I know you're cross' 'I can see you're frustrated because... '' etc but honestly when he starts screaming "milk" St me there's no getting through to him, I don't think he's aware of anything except the thing he wants. I will certainly try and talk to him about his feelings.. But ultimately he's just livid that I'm saying no and passionately wants me to say yes so he's not going to tell me calmly that he's a bit annoyed because the feeling is so much stronger than that. I do believe in putting words to feelings though, to let him know that it's OK to feel that way

I have almost exactly 2 years between my toddler and 9 month old, and still feed them both. Toddler was already down to one feed a day before baby was born, but I talked a lot about the fact that babies have to have lots and lots of milk because they can't eat yummy food like we (ds and I) can. Then we'd think of lots of foods and I'd say 'can baby have carrots' 'no' (lots of giggling) 'can baby have porridge' 'no' etc. which seemed to help the toddler not feel jealous of baby (although I realise our situations are different as I was only feeding once a day for the toddler, and he was used to that pattern). I just wonder if, since you say your boy is quite verbal, if you can get him on side a bit about the baby needing lots and lots of milk. Realise this doesn't help at all in the heat of a tantrum though!

What about a special time each day when your toddler can nurse - how ever many times a day that fits in with his needs right now and finding something to do at the end that's a bit special (painting or baking for my ds)?

My 23month old has had some almighty tantrums and I have tried to turn most things into silly games to prevent them breaking out but I have got to a stage where I had to put him in his cot because he was so hysterical and verging on hurting himself. He has various comforters so had a cuddle with those in his cot, then I got him up for a big cuddle.

Has your toddler got any comforters or special toys that can help him self soothe?

No idea about the feeding but the tantrum sounds normal to me. My DS was a horrific tantrummer. Horrific. For about 6 months we had 3/day sometimes last 2 minutes but we did have a handful of up to an hour. Ignore ignore ignore. So difficult to do, but for my DS at least this was the best way to deal with it. The more I tried to calm him down the more it wound him up. Good luck.

Ignore the tantrum. The less attention they gain the shorter they are.

Cross? Oh yes, little buggers am mellow earth mother until faced with an intractable tantrum. Then note am in fact hot tempered and stubborn too, dunno where they get it from. Plus after all that nurture they get all feisty! Gah, then sad for them too....

I think you sound like a lovely parent, it passes, they are just little.

DS was down to 3 feeds a day when DD arrived. I expected them to increase for a bit but he's still asking constantly after 8 weeks and a throat infection and the norovirus have meant he's almost stopped solids altogether
We talk a lot about babies needing lots of milk and that they can't have anything else. I think he understands that, he just wants it too. Thinking about it he has regressed in a lots of ways to being more baby-like (wanting to be spoonfed even though we did BLW, wanting to be picked up and carried all day long, asking for cuddles a lot more etc) which I think is probably normal when a sibling arrives. He has also started to become attached to any kind of teddy (although does have favourites) or cosy blanket, he was never that kind of child before but they seem to bring comfort comfort - the problem is that when he wants to breastfeed absolutely nothing else will do.

The rest of yesterday went well, I tried to give him as much positive attention as possible and gently steared him away from touching the things he knows he shouldn't without saying a word.. When I have to repeat myself 10 times (and he still doesn't listen) that's when I snap and feel guilty later for shouting. If he started to whinge or scream at me I walked away and he calmed down fairly quickly.

I think added to the normal frustrations of being a toddler and having a new sibling is the fact he's hungry at the moment, but getting him to eat anything has become almost impossible. I think it's a phase so I am handling it with as little fuss as possible. I'm also trying to get him to bed earlier and generally just be calmer (but firm when I need to be) and kinder and a bit more fun.

Thanks so much all, it's lovely to hear we're both 'normal'

My daughter used to have similar tantrums at that age, in her case whenever we left a place or activity she enjoyed. There were very few trips to the park during that phase!

With regard to the tandem nursing, my DD was almost 3 when her brother was born. She, too, wanted to nurse constantly, and I couldn't cope, do I cut her down to 5 regular nursing sessions a day. She wasn't wild about it, but her dad was still on paternity leave so was able to keep her entertained. Does your DS have grandparents/aunts/uncles who would be able to visit and provide fun distractions, or can hid dad help out over a weekend? I found that after a month or two we were both able to ease up and go back to nursing on request.

And at the suggestion that climbing into your arms, getting into a nursing position and shouting for milk is an indication that a toddler is ready to stop breastfeeding!

Your DS is the same age as my DD2 and sounds very similar with regards to tantrums. DD2 is very quick tempered, she stamps her feet and screams etc.

I have mentioned it on MN before, but we were Christmas shopping the other week and she started to tantrum in a shop so I took her outside where she had a full on, lying on the floor, kicking and screaming tantrum. I couldn't get her up, I've never seen anything like it and the stares off other people - my goodness! After that the whole day was just a blur of tantrums so we went home. I don't even know what she even wanted btw!

No is her favourite word ATM.

Very normal. I am about to do school run but have tandem fed twice and had similar issues so will come back to this later. Prob this afternoon as i have xmas shopping.

Yiu are doing great tho xxx

The most ironic thing about my toddlers tantrums is that they result from me saying no, but all our 'conversations' go like this: 'mumy ah ah gah ah nooooooo hmm!.'

Yes DS has grandparents and aunts & cream uncles, they have been visiting and he loves to play with them... But he's started asking for milk while they are here as well! Something he never did before. I am trying to do a combination of saying yes sometimes and no at others just depending on what we're doing. I don't feel I can feed him in front of anyone though.. I hate that I've given in to society's idea of when it's OK to feed a baby in public and when they're too old (I stopped feeding him in public around 12 months) MIL told me the other day she thinks children of his age should have stopped. I just ignored her because I cba to get into a debate about something which is ultimately our business and nobody else's.

Glad he's not the only one having these tantrums, funny how we all think people are judging is when they've probably all been through it themselves (except those who have remembered perfect children that never misbehaved)

I look forward to hearing about the tandem feeding twice over 5madthings I really can't see myself doing this again!

*cream uncles?! My phone has a predictive app and I can't see what I've written until I've posted on the MN app - how funny!

Ignore, ignore, ignore. Explain that when he's feeling better and can talk calmly to you, that you will listen to him. Give him lots of attention when this happens, hugs and time...Anything else, and you are feeding/rewarding bad behaviour. I would also NOT try to distract, that is still attention and as for the TV...that really rewards his tantrums!

All sounds extremely normal. I have 5 children so plenty of experience of tantrums, believe me.. they soon calm down if you stay calm, speak clearly and step over them while they are kicking around on the floor. Lots and lots of love afterwards though.

Can you spend some dedicated time with him without the baby? Difficult, I know.But he needs your attention now more than ever and this is his way of telling you he is feeling perhaps a little insecure since the birth of your youngest.

I am trying to do a combination of saying yes sometimes and no at others just depending on what we're doing.

This is so inconsistent! I would seek help about tandem feeding