tantrums and saying no - this can't be normal

[NiceCupOfTeaAndASitDown]

I really think I need to get some professional help but thought I'd ask you lovely people for your advice first. This morning DS (22 months) had a screaming, hysterical tantrum for a full 45 minutes.. Is this normal?

Nothing I said or did could calm him down, it was like he'd got 'in the zone' and couldn't think of anything other than the thing he wanted, which he repeated over and over again, and we eventually managed to distract him with the tv (its not often on so a novelty I suppose) and now he seems like it never happened.. I don't want to talk to him about it in case it starts him off again.

The problem at the moment is milk, I'm tandem feeding him and his 8 week old sister so I know that he's had a huge upheaval in his life but basically he's refusing most food and wants to nurse like a newborn instead. I'm still suffering nursing aversion (hoped it would go when the baby arrived) and sometimes it's just not practical to feed him. This morning I let him nurse for 20 minutes and asked him to try and go back to sleep (I had warned him at the start that I'd let him nurse for a little while only) but he wanted to continue (if I let him stop when he's done he'll feed for 2 hours, no exaggeration and I can barely handle the 20 mins) and so went completely crazy when I told him it was time to stop (I count down from 5)

I tried to cuddle him but he arched his back, tried to get into a nursing position and kicked me, he screamed until I thought he'd be sick or go hoarse. I just feel that once I've said no I should stick to it because otherwise he'll get the message that if he screams for long enough he'll get what he wants.. It's just heartbreaking to know that if I just fed him he'd be fine (especially because I've always been so adamantly against cio) I'm not looking to wean him yet (he's definitely not ready) but it's becoming such a battle that I'm starting to resent him feeding and squirm when he does (I know this is something I need to talk to la leche league or similar about) plus im aware that if it wasn't the milk he was screaming about it'd be something else I'd said no to and I wouldn't have the nursing to fall back on as comfort.. I am just not sure if it's normal for a toddler to react like this to being told no (I am incredibly stubborn and so is DH so it's probably in his genes to stand his groubd) and I have no clue how to handle it (my mind goes blank so can't think of distractions and I don't think they'd work anyway)

So is this normal? And what should I do? I should probably add he's very verbal and able to express himself pretty well so I don't think it's a communication struggle thing, more an "I've been told no and I don't like it" thing.

There's no parenting courses in my area but I'm really struggling with his behaviour at the moment :-(

dystopian yes I try and spend some one-on-one time with him as often as possible, when DH is home he takes the baby and we bake, read, sing, play or have a bath together.. I also do as much of this as I can when we're on our own but DD will only sleep on me do its not always possible. I use the sling as much as possible but that means I can't feed him/crouch down etc.

I know it's inconsistent but sometimes it's possible and sometimes it's not, I can't feed him on demand as well as DD and I honestly don't want to sit for an hour at a time feeding him any more, I just can't do it. At the moment he seems to make just as much fuss if I decide the feed is finished as if I'd said no in the first place, even if I give him a warning that I want to stop . But I feel that as much as I want to do what's best for him its my body and I shouldn't continue or say yes if I really don't want to - - that's when I start feeling resentful and that's not what I want at all. He wants to feed constantly and I just don't have the energy or patience to do that even if I had the time. That's why I am trying to say yes more often than I want but less often than he wants to try and get to a happy medium if that makes sense? I do need to get some help with it I know, but finding the time to call a helpline is hard.

Your milk is much nicer than it used to be just before the birth and even since he was about 12 months old. Newborn milk is very fatty compared to the milk you made for a toddler & in late pregnancy, when output was very low. Never mind having buckets more of the stuff. It's full of the cannabinoids which make him dopey & happy. It's what keeps babies feeding even if they are prone to being sleepy. Almost addictive.

I think you know that what you and your body needs is to stop feeding two children, one of whom is a toddler who feeds for comfort, therefore he is reluctant to 'let go'. He no longer needs it for survivial, merely comfort and he knows he gets your undivided attention plus comfort when that happens. Nothing wrong with that, he's just a toddler.
But, it might have been worth a try to wean him from you before your youngest's birth as now, he sees his DS as taking his milk, comfort and attention.

Having said that, I'm sure you had his best interests at heart when you felt you could do both. It is very normal indeed to need to nurture, protect and feed your yougest, most vulnerable and you need to recognise that whilst realising that they both need you, their needs are now different. Your Dd needs feeding and your DS needs your attention. He is growing up and needs more than your milk. Maybe recognising that his needs are changing, that your milk is not his real need (but it is for your DD) you can help his need for security.

Its normal but yes exhausting.

Given he has been ill and has a new sibling his need for extra feeding sounds normal.

As you say you dont want to do it all rhe time. How much does he likw routine? Ie could you arrange certain times (roughly) a day where you will feed him? Maybe instugate a bit of a pattern? With mine they had been nursing three ish times a day and then fed more when baby was born. Tjey see the baby feeding all thw time and so want to feed themselves.

I said mornnings, evenings and naprimes and then let them.have other feeds ie when they needed that comfort.

I tried to get them settled doing something before i fed the baby, yes sometimes infront of the tv.

I also had a special box, a decorated shoe box that i filled wirh little toys and treats and some littlw freddo bars, cereal bars, matchbox cars, bubbles, tat from poundland, new books etc. Basically anything i thought they woyld like. The little individual playmobile men you buy in a packet were good, ballons etc.

This box came out at baby feeding time so they got somwthing special for them, they could either nurse themselves orhave a treat frim the box!

Yes tantrums need to be ignored but imo he is too young to totally ignore, he cant control.his emotions or reactions so a cuddle, reassurance and distraction are totally age appropriate ime. my dd just turned two a fortnight ago and she needs a bit of teassurance when she tantrums, its not rewarding the tantrum, she doesnt get what she wants but i do acknowledge her feelings and offer reassurance as they are often overwhelmed and freaked out by the strength of their own feelings.

How good is his speech?

Also how well do you think he woyld respond to an egg timer or alarm.for feeding ie to keep the length of the feed short? Something visual and somwthing at the end of the feed that is positive. Hell bribe him with a chocolate buttom even at the end of the feed?

Does he have a big boy cup? Is there anything else he likes to drink?

He is off his food as he has been ill? At this age several small snacks are better than big meals, i would be offering but not making a fuss if it doesnt get eaten. If he likes baking maybe involve in food prep? He could spread soft cheese on bread and help chop cucumber, banana etc. Or whatever i was thinki.g of easy minimal prep food.

I think the thing to remember is this is a phase, made harder by illness and a mew sibling amd this time of the year means being inside more etc which is not good.

Getting out more helped as toddler less likely to ask to nurse when.out, library, park, walks etc. Do.you have a garden he can play out whilst you supervise from inside?

Nursing manners...asking nicely, explain to.him tantrums are not ok.

Have a look at 'the leaky boob' and 'analytical armadillo' on fb. Also there are some books on tandem feeding worth reading.

Its exhausting but i promise you it gets better!!

Will they both nurse to sleep so you can nap? I used to take mine to bed and get them both to sleep or at least baby andhave pile of books etc for toddler ao we could snuggle and be cosy.

If you have a strong nursing aversion habe you tried breathing exercises or distraction techniques(for yourself)

i think if you want to tandem feed then this is the wrong time to start making it part time. He will want to feed a lot to begin with. Hes asserting his place in the family pack. Its normal. Let baby feed first and then let him feed as long as he wants.
As for tantrums. There is no normal. Hes had a massive upheaval. He probably feels like his nose is completely out of joint if his sister has now got free access to your boobs and he hasnt. Youve got to work out the sibling politics as well as deal with everything else. One of the reasons i stopped breastfeeding in pregnancy as i wanted a gap between one finishing and the other starting so there was no rivalry.

nicecupoftea pm me :)

Tantrums sound normal, no idea about the co-feeding angle though, as it's not something I've done.

Time out is very helpful for helping DD calm down when she has got really worked up and "in the zone" of a mega tantrum eg sitting on a designated cushion until she is ready to stop and say sorry. Normally she will carry on crying until I ask her if she is ready, though, as I think she's too young to get there herself just yet

Haven't read the other responses, but DD 20mo has been having massive tantrums since around 18mo, some up to 2 hours in length, so if you've made it to 22 mo and this is the first biggy I wouldn't think anything was wrong!

OMG this is awful, he's been screaming for an hour far. He's started waking in the night wanting milk and earlier every day. There's some really good points made in the last few posts and I'm trying to be more sympathetic to the reasons he wants to nurse all the time but if I feed him in the night I'm actually going to go crazy and if I get up when he does I'm just saying its OK to get up then...

Finding this so hard and it's starting to get me down. I'm doing my best to ignore the tantrums whilst also letting him know I'm still here but he shows no sign of stopping. He just keeps wailing and screaming "milk" "need cuddle" (if I try he tries to pull my top down and fights me) - his speech is very good, it's not a communication issue, it's an "I'm not getting the thing I want' issue - I totally understand his reasoning (if you can call it that) but that's what it is.

The nursing aversion is bad but I think I just need to suck it up and get on with it if I want a happy child. The thing is I've let him feed as long as he wants on occasion and we're talking 2 hours, I just can't do it. I know nobody in RL who's even fed a toddler past 18 months let alone tandem fed so I've nobody to talk to about it. Anyone I do mention it to tells me to wean.. Even if I wanted to how could i when he loves it so much.

I am completely torn, do I say yes whenever he asks? (including in public which will make me go out less) or keep trying to get back to a routine of set occasions for feeds? I can see myself slipping into a depression over this if I'm not careful.. I wish someone could just tell me what to do (as long as it's not wean or feed him for 2 hours throughout the day )

Oh dear, what a horrid start to the day!

I'm sorry I have nothing useful to say about feeding / weaning, but I didn't want to read and not reply.

Hopefully someone will come along with some advice soon, but as far as managing this morning goes, can you say something like he can feed but only after he has calmed down and had some proper breakfast? And a spell in time out (maybe only 1-2 mins) to help him wind down first?

I generally fed mine to 22 months but tbh I didn't really enjoy it after about 15 months. Breastfeeding is a relationship, it has to work for both sides.

I am very afraid that the nursing aversion will make you crack. That's assuming you don't get sore nipples or other physical problems that jeopardise feeding the infant. That's why I think you should seriously consider fully weaning the toddler; not because I disapprove of how you comfort him or the sight of walking toddlers feeding (mine walked at 10 months); but because you are pushing yourself TOO HARD. You are expecting too much of yourself. You will never be the perfect parent & you have to compromise if you don't want to destroy your own sanity.

I have no Idea how you've managed to last this far. I would have had a complete breakdown weeks ago.

(Okay, off soapbox & putting it away).
I think you are PMing 5MadThings & maybe she can tell you what she did that prevented her from losing sanity, too. None of the successful tandem feeding situations I've read about featured such a stubborn older feeder. Instead they all gush about how tandem feeding reduced sibling rivalry & the older one seemed to understand, etc.

Ok does he tantrum like this over anything else?

His language is good but when you have a toddler qho talks well it can be very easy to trear them like an older child without realising. I had a ds who talked in sentences etc by 18mths old ans he was tall so everyone thoght he was older.

Your ds is not two yet.

Can you swe any patterns in when he wants feeding and why? Any triggers ie the vaby feeding or crying?

As he had a routine of feeding bwfore i think your aim.should be to get back to that for your sanity and so he knows qhere he is at.

Where does he sleep? we co-slept but at this age ish rhey went into their own bed and uf they woke then dp would go and sleep with them. my rule at this age was no milk in night. They could feed adter 6am. I am assuming he hasnt fed in the night for a while?

I think this is mainly new sibling, plus illness and normal boundary trying at thia age.

Nursing aversion try brearhing exercises yiu can do. If you google you should find some twchniques for helping.

Would the egg timer work or somw kind of visual.chart of things he does in the day, including feeding but only at certain times ie morning, aftwr lunch and bedtime?

Is he better when out?

Re friends and visitors is it worth talking to them.before a visit so they focus on.him when they arrive rather than the baby?

Other than feeding what is his fave thing?

Re soreness are you sore? As long as his latch is ok his feeding ahouldnt be a problem.

One thing i did was express and offered the milk in a cup but i vould express very easily.

Is there anything else going on? Teething is he thrown by the build up to xmas etc?

He def sounds like he needs some boundaries but a lot of love and patience.

I wpuld be talking to him calmly in very short simple sentences when he tantrums. He needs to know you are there for a cuddle and reassurance but that doesnt mean a bfeed.

Remind hom of an activity or something he can do when he calms down.

He is too little to totally ignore and it sounds likw he is getting too distressed to just ignore him. But i woyld potter aeound and get on with stuff whilst still offering reassirance and a cuddle if he wants it.

Be boring and calm. Acknowledge his feelings but just talk about what you are doing, what you have planned for the day. I would intwrmitently offer a cuddle and say 'you are still feeling sas/angry' but just chat about anyrhing.

Yoi.dont even have to talk directly to him it can be a running commentary of what you are doing etc but it will help you stay calm and it may help him calm down.

The thing is to be there if he wants you but not rewarding the tantrum with positive behaviour so you are available but are not engaging with the tantrum but equally you arw not totally ignoring him as at his age he is a bit little and tbh he sounds like that woyldnt work, he is getting in such a state :(

Hi, I think it is essentially his way of getting your undivided attention which is what all toddlers want and they will use fair means or foul to get it. Ie even getting told off for being naughty is attention.
As his language is good I think that you could set some boundaries around feeding him eg one bedtime feed or a feed during or before a favourite tv programme, try to include a time limit on it and also to increase his calorie intake through food - if this means feeding him chips, nuggets and pizza then do so, it's only for the short term.
You are being incredibly patient with him but your body is not able to provide the nourishment that an almost two year old needs.

hello
sounds so tough for you, you must be exhausted.
I never tandem fed, (but fed through pregnancies up to about 7 months) but am nursing a 2 1/2 year old. She had phases of monster nursing off and on up until last few months, and I found I couldn't and didn't want to nurse for hours/during the night either. Also had some tantrums for milk sounding a bit like yours.

I got a specific top I would put on when I was happy to nurse her, and changed out when I was done, to add to the verbal count downs etc. She could also cuddle this top at end of a feed, but the top was kept out of her sight and reach at other times.

you are doing really well, meeting such intense needs and lack of sleep etc. I also remember the despair when food/drink rejected all the time as I knew it would mean she wanted more nursing; the feeling that I didn't want her climbing on me; feeling kept away from my other children etc

So it can happen even without the emotional mix of a new sibling (for us my daughter has horrific pain with teething and is not a good sleeper anyway. and very stubborn)

it didn't last too long for us, or rather would ebb and flow with intensity over a longish period. all nursing seems to be winding now, she will be 3 in april.

I don't distract or reason with tantrums, just stay close and offer detached sympathy and name emotions e.g. ''you look very cross. mummy says no and you feel angry and sad'' from time to time. this must be very annoying, but i don't want them to learn its not okay/its scary to be cross or sad. I only walk away if hurting me, then I say ''its okay to be cross, but its not okay to hurt''

good luck.you are not alone, and is okay to set some consistant boundaries.

I would try posting on the Breast and Bottle Feeding section too to see if anyone has experience of this situation - I'm sure there have been tandem feeding support threads.

There's also a good book called "Adventures in Tandem Nursing" although I appreciate you might not have the time or inclination to read at the moment!

I agree the tantrum sounds absolutely normal and developmentally appropriate for his age (unfortunately!) I don't believe that at 22 months tantrums are "naughty", they are just the feelings overwhelming them and being too "big" to handle, this can be quite scary for them.

If you have a La Leche League group locally as well there are likely to be people there who have tandem fed and if not the leaders will be able to help and advise.

I'm sorry I can't be of more practical help as I only have one child, but thought I'd put these out here in case nobody else had mentioned it. I know my friend struggled a lot with her just-over-2 year old wanting to nurse a lot when her second child was born, so I think it's a common issue - just fairly uncommon to tandem feed at all hence harder to find support for - but it is out there :)

LLL often have a library as well where members can borrow books for free and non-members for a nominal fee of about £1. :)

Sorry you are having such a hard time. There is some stuff about bf on this thread that is just plain wrong but I think you probably know plenty if you have got this far. Please ring LLL, its a busy time of year but you are not alone, someone will be able to help you with this.

Re tantrums. He is very young still and may be overwhelmed by his feelings about you, new sibling etc. I think with my ds it is possible to tell the difference between a distress tantrum (eg taking a comfort blanket away from a non-bf child) and a strop type tantrum. I always try and comfort through the distress type as they are too young to deal with it themselves.

However your new baby is very very young, you have to balance all of your needs. I only have one but several people I know say these first few months with two is very hard to deal with what everyone needs, you can't be there for everyone 100% in every way.

Have you got a dp/dh? Can they help distract toddler?

OP, I don't have any advice but just wanted to say that you sound like a great parent who is just going through a difficult patch. I have a 6 week old and 2 year old and am grateful that my 2 yr old self weaned whilst I was pregnant. I don't think I would have had the patience you do.
I hope everything works out for you.

I was a bit surprised that OP was so surprised by the 45 minute tantrum. Neither of mine did major tantrums, and certainly not 45 minute ones, but I am very aware that they are totally normal, common and exhausting.
You seem a bit out of touch OP. Have you done alot of reading of toddler books. Have you read many Mn threads? Becuase there is a wealth of information out there, if you want/need.
This thread overall seems to have been extremely supportive.
I hope you too see it that way.

You do sound near breaking point Op, so this is a concern.
I never had this problem because I had long finished bf'ing ds1 by the time ds2 came along. Although ds1 was fascinated by ds1 bf'ing.
And I am a shouter at the worst of times, so I do understand the vicious circle you are in.
But you do need some consistency. And that's so hard when you are tired (believe me, I know).
And you will need to up his food little by little, because it has dropped so low, from novvirus etc.
And what about having a 'you are a big boy now' chat.
And does he like food? Generally? Both mine are big eaters, so treat of choosing what they want is good for them. Does he like .... sausages and mash, does he like to go swimming with daddy and then eat xxx afterwards.
Would anything like that help?

familessharegerms I have waited until he calms down and offered food, drink, cuddles etc, he's not interested (can't hear I think once he's in the zone) and today the calming down took 2 very long hours

lljkk I've lasted this long for several reasons;

1. I'm bloody stubborn. The only person I know who is as determined/strong-willed as me is DS
2. it was really hard to begin with, he hated it and it took around 3 months to do it properly, it makes me feel I should be completely sure it's the right thing for both of us when we stop
3. feeding through pregnancy was awful and I worked hard to get through it, I owe it to myself to give tandem feeding a good go before giving up (my good go is probably longer than a lot of other people's I have high expectations of myself)
4. I'm hoping this is just a phase, when he was only feeding 3 times a day it was totally manageable and I'd like to try and get back to that
5. I'd like to try and feed him until at least the WHO recommended age of 2
6. most importantly DS is not ready to quit, so I want to try everything within my power to make it good again so we're both happy

5madthings I've PM'd you but yes he tantrums like this over technology (probably the only other thing he loves as much as milk) such as cameras, phones etc. Anything with a screen and photos/music. He's obsessed with them and if they get taken away or he's not allowed to play with them he goes nuts - its worse if someone let's him play with something and then takes it away so I generally ask them not to let him have it in the first place. I've been toying with the idea of buying him a cheap mobile phone to to put photos on. Maybe that's a mad idea, I always said he'd have to be about 14

There's no real cues that I've noticed that he'll ask to feed. Not when the baby does really - he seems to understand that she needs milk more than he does and doesn't appear to resent her at all, in fact he adores her and if I feed them together he holds her hand or strokes her head. I think it's often when he's tired or I've been thinking lately that he's bored, we've been ill and not out as much as usual.

He sleeps in a cot beside our bed. I've ordered a gro-clock and I'm hoping we can teach him to wait overnight with that. He's not fed in the night since 15 months except when sick.
I like the idea of a visual chart to let him know what's happening, he's loved the advent calendar. I wonder what sort of thing would work?

DH is off for a few days over Christmas, I am hoping between us we can distract him and get him back to the 3 feeds a day.

I'm no more sore than usual. His latch has always been shallow despite being checked many times when he was younger, I'm pretty sure he has a high arched palate. It's his teeth digging in that's the problem now, we've talked about him stopping for a minute and relatching - he says it comes out too fast and when I take him off its going everywhere! I don't know if i can do anything about a fast letdown but he seems happy to be removed for a second or 2 most of the time

I think he is picking up on your anxiety. He wants you to be happy when he is breastfeeding, you are clearly not, so that aggravates situation.

I breastfed two toddlers to 26 months (twins). I fed about five times a day sometimes less, they had lots of other foods too, including milk from a cup (but no bottles). We had a very bad journey back from Tenerife when they were about 23 months...feeding non stop, I had brought no alternative milk supply - we were delayed by 4 hours...etc etc..it was bit of a wakeup call for me, and I realised that weaning was probably right for me in the next few months. Weaning from that point was very easy, cutting a feed a day over three months, until the last feed was no issue at all. We never looked back.

Btw, although my toddlers had tantrums later, I think bfng did defuse a lot of situations. Certainly I loved it, they loved it. Like you I had a difficult start to bfng relationship for first few months.

I think you are in a place now, where he is finding it upsetting and so are you. I think you should think of alternate cosy ways to be together as well as bfng. I find it upsetting that you should nurse him when you have this aversion. Bdng should never be something that tears you apart. He will be fine if you cut back feeds. HE WILL BE FINE.

Ok I remember the feeding aversion. Made my skin crawl. Ds was 26 months when dd arrived. In the end we cut feeds down to morning and bedtime and no nights. With your DH around he can distract. I would ask ds to wait until later.

But part of it will be new baby syndrome. New baby was a novelty but now it's worn off and he wants his mum back. No amount of attention is enough but it gets easier as the balance shifts. I survived by spending too much on pocket money toys and snacks plus getting out.
Make sure your ds is well napped and getting a run outside as much as possible.